Antz (1998) & A Bug's Life (1998)

[00:00:00] This is the GMR, The Generations Movie Review Podcast.

[00:00:07] When Pixar released Toy Story in 1995, it changed the way movie studios approached animation.

[00:00:14] Suddenly, digitally animated movies became all the rage. On today's GMR, we compare contrast to movies that came in this immediate wake

[00:00:23] and discuss how different productions approached similar source material. Fair warning, the following conversation reveals plot details.

[00:00:31] I'm Lori Rollner and these are your hosts, Kyle Krantz and James Romer.

[00:00:36] So Kyle, today I was reading about the concept of capitalist realism, which is the idea that people living within an existing system believe it to be the only viable system that there is.

[00:00:49] And I was wondering what your thoughts were on that. We could talk a book about this.

[00:00:55] So, to answer your question simply throughout history, there's been an inertia of governing systems that have already been in place.

[00:01:12] So, if civilization and empire has been governed and it has worked a certain way so there always is some kind of inertia to that system.

[00:01:24] It's built into the culture a little bit, hundreds of years of a certain kind of system working.

[00:01:32] And I say working and for those listening, I'm doing quotations because it's at the time. It's really all people know.

[00:01:39] It's not like when we grow up, we get to see for two years, I lived in a socialist place, then for two years, I lived in a monarchy.

[00:01:49] It's not like we get to experience all these different forms of government realistically.

[00:01:55] And this is true for wherever most people are from. I mean, it's usually, oh, it's kind of like a military dictatorship or a democracy.

[00:02:02] And then this is all they know. So when we're talking about forms of how to structure the economy, I think there's always going to be a certain inertia to whatever the system is because in reality it's a hard argument to argue against.

[00:02:20] Because you can go back in any point and you could say, well, I don't know if a feudal monarchy is the right way to govern our society.

[00:02:29] And then they can always say, well, here's the results we've produced.

[00:02:33] Your system hasn't produced any results. Our system brought us the safety of our borders and these castles and the labor, the till the farm.

[00:02:44] And you can say the same thing about capitalism. Well, I think that maybe another system might work better given our advances in technology and how many people we have on the planet and the nature of resources right there.

[00:02:58] But then a capitalist will say, well, look at all the beautiful things capitalism has given us. All these products, all these vaccines, all this wealth, they're too unknown to a large swath of the population.

[00:03:12] We talked about in another podcast that one of the issues with capitalism is that there's a tendency to see everything as a resource.

[00:03:19] How long have we lived with capitalism in the United States? And about when would you pinpoint the start point for that?

[00:03:28] Well, that's what's beautiful about the United States. Our economy has always been roughly derived from capitalism. In fact, one of the founding laws or rules of our nation is that no one can hold titles.

[00:03:39] You can't be a lord in America. That holds no legal bearing. And that's because we started fresh with a new slate.

[00:03:48] There will always be people that perpetuate their wealth in some form or another. But I mean, the idea was that you could come to America and it was a basic derivative capitalist system where you can buy and sell goods and the government would take a step back and attempt to facilitate that.

[00:04:07] In fact, if you go back to Alexander Hamilton being the first secretary of the treasury, that was his intention when we were setting up America.

[00:04:17] As we're recording this, we've just come to the conclusion of the primary season and you hear people on both sides of the political aisle talking about concepts around authoritarianism, around fascism.

[00:04:31] How do you think those concepts relate to capitalism? And what do they mean in today's society?

[00:04:38] I think what most people fundamentally miss about all of these forms of government is they're just tools. They're not inherently good or bad.

[00:04:53] And I'll give you an example right now. I mean, dictator comes from Latin. The Roman Republic, when it was still a republic for those hundreds of years, they had a system in place where if there was an emergency, they would make someone a dictator for six months.

[00:05:10] The reason they did that is because a dictator, someone who doesn't have to answer to anyone and who can make unilateral decisions, can move quicker in that system when it's only incumbent on one person to make choices for the nation.

[00:05:24] They realize that it had a benefit in their utility.

[00:05:28] And I think that kind of gets lost in the politics. Any form of government with any form of communism, capitalism, any of these forms of society is realistically what we need to view them as more tools that maybe just imagine your toolkit at home.

[00:05:45] Each tool has its own specific use. You can't use one tool for everything.

[00:05:49] I think a lot of times people get caught up and it's kind of like we said at the beginning, it's inertia. You grow up in a completely capitalist household or environment.

[00:06:00] And you start to see it as this multi tool that fixes all solutions but in reality, that's not the case for any of these tools.

[00:06:08] And there's a spectrum too, right? Because you talk about authoritarianism. That's one end of the spectrum.

[00:06:14] And maybe the other side of the spectrum is communism or socialism. There's gradations between each of those concepts too. It's not like socialism or communism, catch all for any government that's ever existed really.

[00:06:31] It all depends on the different quantitative and qualitative factors of each society. It's way easier for me at least, I don't know about you to imagine a completely socialist society of 50 people.

[00:06:46] 50 people that I'll get along and share everything and don't own anything. I mean, that's very easy for me to imagine scale that up to hundreds of millions of people.

[00:06:56] It's a little tougher for me to understand how that whole system works and we all get what we need.

[00:07:01] There are a lot of different factors that go into how we use these different tools and toolkits.

[00:07:08] I do think generally speaking, you look at when capitalism arose, roughly in the Netherlands, roughly in the 17th century.

[00:07:17] And you could think about when they started a global trading empire, the Dutch East India company, Tulip Mania, the first recorded boom and bust cycle where they were speculating on tulips.

[00:07:29] And back then, you can have a capitalist saying, listen, I know capitalism has its problems. But look at all these problems with feudal lords and feudalism and look at how much more wealth we have with this new system.

[00:07:43] It's just relatively speaking. And you know, you can look at what Mark said about his critiques about capitalism.

[00:07:50] And those are all kind of valid. But I think what we've realized with all these different forms of governance is that there seems to be no one size fits all solution.

[00:08:00] Would you agree with that?

[00:08:01] There is absolutely not a single idea that resolves every question. As I mentioned a moment ago, is I think it's really gradations between the various concepts that we're exploring here.

[00:08:15] As you were saying all that, I was thinking about capitalism as a monetary or fiscal or governmental philosophy. How do you think that relates to military policy like colonialism?

[00:08:33] A lot of this conversation could go scholastic where we're arguing over terms. I think broadly speaking, there's capitalism and then you can have like mercantilism which is what people tend to describe as what the colonizers were doing where it wasn't an open and free market where there was like some kind of closed loop to market where different powers would vie for the vertically integrated supply chain.

[00:09:00] So you would go, hey, I need cotton to fuel my textile mills here in England. So instead of paying for it on the open market with all these other open markets, I'm just going to go colonize an area that grows cotton, the Southern American colonies or India. That makes sense.

[00:09:19] When you're capitalist society, you ultimately need other societies with whom to trade. But it doesn't matter if they're capitalist. What matters is that your capitalist and that you need other people.

[00:09:36] That's always been the huge grite with America's foreign policy because pure Adam Smith style capitalism is, hey guys, it's a completely open and free market where goods from all over the world are valued and priced against each other. And then it's all open to everyone but in reality, especially coming out of mercantilism and colonialism that wasn't really the case.

[00:10:00] Because there's tariffs and there's human rights and there's also labor laws in different countries. That's the thing it's not like each government holds hands and is like, hey, we're all going to play by the same rules.

[00:10:12] So then other governments have to adjust their rules and their geopolitical strategy to account for those differences.

[00:10:21] So for example, I mean the one that jumps to my mind is we have America versus the CCP in China. We're operating in like a capitalist web.

[00:10:32] But our governments have like kind of fundamentally different ways of dealing with that because in CCP China, the government has a say in what every single large company does and it has access to all the data.

[00:10:48] And it can vote no on a decision that any corporation is. So it's more time to the government whereas that's not the case in America.

[00:10:56] So each country has this sort of a justice geopolitical strategy to meet what the other one is doing. It's kind of like game theory.

[00:11:05] These all sound like some pretty heavy concepts, capitalism, colonialism, individualism, militarism.

[00:11:14] But they all relate to the two movies that we're going to talk about today.

[00:11:18] In fact, I would say those concepts sometimes bug me.

[00:11:24] These concepts all relate to the two movies we'll be talking about on today's GMR.

[00:11:30] The first movie we're going to discuss is called ANS and it was a DreamWorks production that was released in 1998.

[00:11:40] It was directed by Eric Darnell and Tim Johnson.

[00:11:43] And it features the voices of Woody Allen, Sharon Stone, Jennifer Lopez, GMR favorite Sylvester Stallone, Christopher Walken and Jean Hackman.

[00:11:55] The general thrust of the story is we are introduced to an Aunt Ming Z who is pushing for his own individualism and really just doesn't want to have to be a worker aunt anymore.

[00:12:10] But once he escapes the colony, discovers that there's a nefarious plot brewing that he needs to engage and work together to help resolve.

[00:12:21] The second movie we'll be discussing today is a Bugs Life Pixar movie that came out in 1998.

[00:12:29] And was this the second Pixar movie?

[00:12:31] This was the second Pixar movie and this came out literally three months after ANS.

[00:12:37] Yeah, wow. Okay. So it was directed by John Lasseter and Andrew Stanton written by John Lasseter Andrew Stanton and Joe Rafft.

[00:12:45] Stars Kevin Spacy as the evil Grasshopper named Hopper David Foley as flick the inventor adventure nontraditional ant and Julia Louis Dreyfus as Attta the Queen Ant in this movie flick.

[00:13:05] He gets expelled and he attempts to find help for his little aunt colony on Ant Island and he finds help an unexpected place and they help him in unexpected ways.

[00:13:20] Additionally, today we have a special guest joining us on the GMR is a gentleman that we've actually known most of his life and he brings his own unique perspective on films and film history listeners.

[00:13:39] I invite you to welcome Avery Chen. Thank you for joining us today, Avery.

[00:13:44] Thank you guys for having me. Avery, let the listener know how is it that you came to know the members of the GMR and what is your relationship with them in relation to movies?

[00:13:56] My relationship began when I was nine years old and this was the first time to actually make collocrans.

[00:14:04] We pitted off pretty quickly actually and that was in the third grade.

[00:14:09] Yeah, so it was third grade. I just moved and just started going to a little elementary school named Acres Green.

[00:14:17] Actually, it wasn't even in school. It was in the after school program, I think.

[00:14:22] And I think what happened was we were two kids who liked didn't have friends and you're like, hey, do you want to kick this ball?

[00:14:29] You know, you would just kick the ball back.

[00:14:31] That's how so many friendships begin at that age.

[00:14:33] You know, we got a ball. What are we going to do here? You know, let's kick this ball and then here we are coming up on 20 years.

[00:14:41] Yeah, wow. That's a long friendship at your guys and say, and it's wild. We haven't played kickball in like 15 years.

[00:14:47] Do you think about it? That's kind of crazy.

[00:14:49] Do you have any idea what would have been the first or an early movie that you guys would have seen together?

[00:14:55] Tell us a little bit about like your relationship with movies and what you and your parents would do, right?

[00:15:01] Because that's kind of how we became friends, too.

[00:15:04] Because not only did my parents watch movies with me when I was like kind of really young age and like movies that were rated are.

[00:15:11] But that's also kind of what it was like with your parents, right?

[00:15:14] Correct. And I believe my earliest movie I can remember watching with Kyle was actually robots in the theater.

[00:15:22] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think you did you actually hear that podcast where I kind of roasted that movie yet?

[00:15:27] Yeah. So that was the birthday where I remember seeing the first bad movie.

[00:15:34] Like I said in that podcast, that was a distinct memory.

[00:15:37] It was the first one. Do you recall robots being your first bad movie?

[00:15:41] Did you think it was a bad movie?

[00:15:43] I think at the time how I viewed movies then was not really to criticize it but rather just to enjoy the time.

[00:15:53] I believe that when I was growing up my parents would actually, you know, every week we would rent maybe two movies or so and we would watch them.

[00:16:03] And this kind of went on for years in my life. You know, this is how I developed my own movie knowledge and how.

[00:16:08] The honest was it Red Box or Blockbuster?

[00:16:11] It was both. We first started with Blockbuster and then there's actually a King Super's next door house and they had a Red Box.

[00:16:20] So he ended up just going to the Red Box out there just from the pure convenience of it.

[00:16:24] What kind of movies would you watch with your parents?

[00:16:27] They would range from Pixar Childers movies to Tarantina movies.

[00:16:32] What would you say is your favorite movie?

[00:16:36] I have a clear answer. It's Pulp Fiction. However, my very first movie that I can distinctly recall is actually Cliff Hanger.

[00:16:45] Also starring Silver System Loan.

[00:16:47] Okay.

[00:16:48] I'm not totally certain why this movie impacted me so much but somehow when I was young, this is back when I was in California so I was pretty seven years old then.

[00:16:58] Every time that I would see the helicopter explode and the money fly around or the motorcycle learned on the snow the skiing,

[00:17:06] I just thought this was the most exciting movie that I've ever seen in my life.

[00:17:10] And so it always has a close place to my heart.

[00:17:13] Do you hold Stallone in particularly high regard as a result of that movie?

[00:17:20] No. Unfortunately not.

[00:17:23] I mean, I actually am going to say that just try to do your best Silver System Loan impression.

[00:17:27] I'm not even going to embarrass myself in that way.

[00:17:30] Just say hey you guys.

[00:17:31] Go away for it. It's me Rocky.

[00:17:34] Sorry, Adrian, you can't leave.

[00:17:36] I did.

[00:17:37] But I do as when I watched Cliff Hanger again, like maybe several years ago, I actually did not like it as much.

[00:17:45] I did feel that the antagonists were almost too antagonistic, almost edgy.

[00:17:54] Were they like the traditional one-dimensional bad guys?

[00:17:59] I haven't seen them in the movie.

[00:18:01] Not only were they very one-dimensional, but they're also so evil just to be evil.

[00:18:06] Just over the top.

[00:18:07] Just over the top and you know, I did not notice this detail.

[00:18:12] So when I watched it with a more developed mind, I actually really didn't like them because I probably won't ever watch it again.

[00:18:20] But I still hold the reputation of it in my heart as a close movie.

[00:18:27] What kinds of movies would you say that you generally like then and now?

[00:18:34] It's hard to say I've been trying to watch more movies recently, but I really don't like what has been produced lately, especially in Hollywood.

[00:18:45] So especially with all the superhero movies and don't worry about it, I do like them and I do think they have the entertaining aspect of it.

[00:18:52] But I recently find myself liking much smaller ones.

[00:18:56] Especially A24 films.

[00:18:59] I actually have many movie discussions with Anne, my wife and my parents.

[00:19:05] And we always talk about what was our favorite movies or what period of time that we believe had some of the best movies in.

[00:19:12] I always considered that to be like the 90s.

[00:19:14] But fiction was one of them.

[00:19:17] For me, I always would compare performances then and award shows then.

[00:19:22] What type of tier movies appeared during that decade?

[00:19:26] Sure, what are the movies that were nominated for a best picture in 1993 in comparison to what are the movies nominated for best pictures they last year?

[00:19:36] When I think about the most recent movie that actually had an impact on me that I truly enjoyed watching,

[00:19:42] it would be hard to actually give an answer to that because I really don't like the movies these days.

[00:19:49] There's something of a running joke with a person that I work with at my office that I don't like or watch any movies after the year 2001,

[00:20:00] because I just feel like it was around that time that the movie culture began being engulfed by superhero movies and everything was a franchise and everything was a brand.

[00:20:14] And it just became intolerable.

[00:20:18] I mean, Hollywood's always been about making money.

[00:20:21] Hollywood's always been about getting as many people as possible to watch any given title.

[00:20:28] But you're right, in the 1990s there was a period of time where movies could have real genuine ideas and they could give real genuine perspectives on those ideas.

[00:20:40] And it wasn't just about strictly hitting as many people as possible with the biggest possible splash when that movie was released at the theater.

[00:20:50] And these movies here that we're talking about today are from the 1990s and cover some pretty radical ideas.

[00:21:00] So, Avery, welcome and we look forward to your comments and perspectives on today's movies.

[00:21:07] So starting with the movie Ants.

[00:21:10] Ants came out as I mentioned in 1998 and has something of a convoluted story of corporate entry behind it.

[00:21:23] Ants was the first movie released by DreamWorks Animation and one of the founders of DreamWorks was a guy named Jeffrey Katzenberg who previously worked at Disney.

[00:21:35] And Disney did not yet at this point own Pixar, but they were closely aligned with Pixar and had previously produced Toy Story which had come out in 1995.

[00:21:47] The Pixar studios had started work on their second feature which was a bug's life.

[00:21:55] And DreamWorks was formed, I want to say in 1997 but Katzenberg was accused by John Lasseter of stealing the ideas behind a bug's life and then aramming through production so that Ants would be released a few months ahead of a bug's life which is actually how it happened.

[00:22:17] There were a couple things to note, there was some kind of lawsuit and Katzenberg won.

[00:22:24] So at least in the eyes of the law like Disney had wronged him.

[00:22:29] What it is is because he there was a controversy over and again it's all about the corporate entry.

[00:22:35] I don't know the ins and outs of how the corporate culture works at Disney but effectively Katzenberg was owed some promotion they didn't give it to him.

[00:22:45] They let him go, he sued them, they sued him and in the end he ended up forming DreamWorks.

[00:22:51] It's a little more complex than that right because it was originally called bugs, BUGZ.

[00:22:58] Those are the original ideas, I don't know if they still do it but I think once every time period month quarter they would get into a room and they would just spitball ideas for movies.

[00:23:10] And someone had spitballed the idea of bugs and it was Jeffrey Katzenberg was the one that carried that project.

[00:23:18] He was the main sponsor of it.

[00:23:21] I think part of it was he felt like it was his thing so he tried to ram it through.

[00:23:28] And there are clear similarities in these two movies, imagine like a tree splitting off into two separate shrunks somehow.

[00:23:36] This is kind of what it is notably and I know we're jumping ahead in the plot here but at some point in hands the princess and Z get trapped in a water drop.

[00:23:50] Notably in a bug's life that exact same scene happens where they get the princess and flip get trapped in a water drop.

[00:23:58] They roll off, they splatter on the ground and then they're out of the water drop.

[00:24:02] A lot of these movies, their story boarded in kind of scenes where they draw one picture and they go okay this will be this scene then this scene.

[00:24:09] And it's clear based on those similarities that you know these movies started kind of at the same place.

[00:24:15] Both of these movies are also early examples of computer generated animation as we noted bugs life is the second ever feature length production from Pixar studios and ants is the first feature length animated feature from Dreamworks animation.

[00:24:33] And as you say they both have very similar plots but they also are subtly different ants are for a subject here is geared towards a more adult audience and the star voices I think reflect that.

[00:24:49] When Gloria and I were watching ants the first thing she pointed out is what audience is going to even understand Z as voiced by Woody Allen this isn't exactly a characterization intended for children.

[00:25:05] Yeah and his existential ramblings on the existence of an ant the futility of digging a tunnel I mean that's what was so cool about watching it again as an adult

[00:25:17] because the last time I had seen it I wasn't even a teenager yet seeing again it's a movie made the biggest question I came away with after this movie is who was this movie really made for is it for teenagers is it for kids and they were trying to sprinkle in adult elements.

[00:25:36] I'd say they didn't do a good job at sprinkling in those adult elements because I knew it's a lot of Pixar movies they don't explicitly say adult theme things they just kind of allude to it and they do that because they know that there are going to be parents watching this movie with their kids and you know they want to entertain them too seems like they were trying to make a kids movie and then sprinkle in adult themes and topics.

[00:25:59] In the first you know 10 minutes I mean it's mostly adult theme topics you have Z as voiced by Woody Allen.

[00:26:07] The movie begins with Z on the couch of his psychiatrist which in itself is something of a play off of Woody Allen's own filmography because many of his characters are famously in therapy.

[00:26:22] The character is going through something of an existential crisis talking about his lack of desire in his job in his lack of desire as an individual in his lack of happiness just in general.

[00:26:36] He has a friend weaver played by Sylvester Stallone weaver's goals are much more simplistic than Z Z has very elaborate ideas of what his life should be that don't really include the good of the colony which is indirect contrast to the way everybody else has been raised and that kind of draws in the concepts of individualism that I alluded to at the forefront of this podcast.

[00:27:05] Yeah. And one of the things I kept thinking about as I was watching ants is that Z is actually a direct threat to the colony because he isn't working with everybody he isn't collectively working towards their larger goal he's trying to find ways to escape it.

[00:27:26] Yeah, I mean order of priorities simply put Z puts himself first where the functionality of a tight knit colony like that where they're working all day or they're going out to war to die.

[00:27:43] The functionality rests on the simple fact that we want most of these ants to put the colony before themselves they have to right that's the only way

[00:27:55] the colony works is if the ants put the colony ahead of their own individuals digging into why answer ants I mean that's why ants have survived ants do not survive as rugged individual ants the only way they survive in the world is as a colony together.

[00:28:14] So Z and weaver go to the local ant colony bar and while they're there were introduced to Princess Bala who as the top of the hierarchy in the colony has her own dissatisfactions she's not pleased with the idea that she's in a pre-arranged engagement with the general.

[00:28:40] She's not excited at the idea that she's going to be basically giving birth for the rest of her life once she becomes the queen and basically she's just looking for a little excitement so her and a couple of her girlfriends decide they're going to quote unquote slum it and go to the local bar and see what the workers are doing and see how the other half lives.

[00:29:01] So I note I have witnessed that phenomenon whatever they are trying to capture with upper class bougie ants going into a lower end area to get some thrills and see that's how I you know having gone to college I mean not exactly that situation just that kind of energy where I saw some people from perhaps upper middle class backgrounds going

[00:29:29] I want to see what it's like on this side of town I felt that a lot. Well, it's kind of a common trope too in the movies. Yeah, just one that pops into my mind is good will hunting also from the same period where well yeah, I mean that seems famous in college we always used to say that what are you trying to good will hunting me bro when he references the specific textbook pages and makes the college kid look kind of dumb so Z meets Princess Bala in the bar because Z is the most popular.

[00:29:59] And the entire place the entire community is in the bar and they're doing something of a collective dance together which is actually just a variation on the training that they do for their work.

[00:30:11] It's like line dancing it's reminiscent of like a Quaker society or like late 18th century American societies where they were really sexually kind of repressed tiny communities and they would get together and dance exactly like that where it was uniform and a line and then that's where line dancing.

[00:30:28] Comes from so it kind of has that sort of vibe to it. It's definitely that vibe. Yeah, I mean there's a sense that this is not a place or time for individualism or individual expression.

[00:30:41] This is just one more place that we're going to do it all together and then we're going to get back to our beds and then we're going to wake up tomorrow and get up and go back to work.

[00:30:49] And another note they hit on here is I think Sylvester Stallone's character Weaver says bitch or bitching or something and then I went oh, I know for a fact there's no Pixar movie that says that okay I'm in for a different kind of experience.

[00:31:04] One they talk about drinking their alcohol out of some bugs anus. I don't think anything that vulgar has been in a Disney movie at least not explicitly you get vibes of communist Russia because I mean that was the same thing.

[00:31:18] I mean that was a society that famously always even before communism had an addiction to booze but then it was perpetuated by communism right they would make the vodka bottles where the caps don't go back on the vodka bottles because they expected the workers to drink the entire bottle of vodka whenever they got one.

[00:31:39] Right so it kind of had that vibe where it's like hey dig in the tunnels for 12 hours a day go get drunk and then repeat.

[00:31:45] It is absolutely true that ants was marketed towards an intended for an older audience.

[00:31:54] I was going to say do you remember the marketing?

[00:31:56] Oh yes.

[00:31:57] Was it supposed to be the edge year older person movie where it's like hey we know Disney is going to come out with a kid friendly movie.

[00:32:04] You know if you're older why don't you see ants?

[00:32:06] Oh most certainly and it's reflective in the cast.

[00:32:09] You know in the Pixar movies they pick something of an all star cast as well but there may be not as high of a level as the ones here in ants because ants has literally an A list collection of actors.

[00:32:26] I mean if you run through the list of people that are in this movie you have Woody Allen that arguably the height or near the height of his career Sharon Stone at the absolute height of her career Jennifer Lopez as she's on the upswing Sylvester Stallone maybe on a slight down swing Christopher walk and at his height Dan Acroid and Bancroff Danny Glover and Gene Hackman I mean this is a.

[00:32:48] A list level cast that isn't going to mean anything to a kids audience but is going to be much more attractive to an adult audience yeah and you know animation it kind of it's like one layer moved from reality.

[00:33:04] But imagine if you saw these actors in the same movie together yeah that would be kind of wild to have this many stars in one movie you would almost be distracting.

[00:33:14] It's almost only feasible in like some kind of comedy parody or like an animated movie.

[00:33:21] It's worth pointing out to that as Laurie had mentioned when we were launching this she was questioning the wisdom of having somebody like Woody Allen as the lead actor in this kind of production and when this movie came out I was at the tail end of my own interest in the films that Woody had released from like 1989.

[00:33:43] In 1989 to roughly 2000 I was a huge fan of Woody Allen's movies though by 1998 he was on a downturn he had released a series of films that were getting to the point where by the time you got to small time Crooks in 2000 I was over it.

[00:34:00] I was no longer a fan I was like I saw that at the theater and thought this is garbage he's just cranking out the same things over and over again I'm no longer interested.

[00:34:09] But there was a run there from circa 1979 to like 1992 that some of the best American dramas made were directed by Woody Allen so I had a strong interest in a lot of those films.

[00:34:25] I don't watch any of them anymore but I look back on them with some degree of fondness and that was part of the appeal of a movie like ants yes children could watch it but it was geared more towards that adult sensitivity.

[00:34:42] And that's what I enjoyed going into it this summer round as we leave the bar scene and you know Z and ball I get to know each other but then Z is knocked out there separately.

[00:34:54] And he's looking for that experience again so he switches places with weaver the Sylvester Stallone army and in hopes of in a march through catching ball on being like hey remember me we had that good time because I'm sure for Z that was like the climax of his life so far was spending time with the princess

[00:35:14] I don't know I mean I've never lived in a monarchy before but I'm sure like that's what it's like if they weren't quite in a romantic position the first time they met but I mean I can imagine that would be the kind of thing that's the pinnacle of your life so far so.

[00:35:30] And in an attempt to see the princess again Z joins the army by switching places with weaver but what we don't know is a gene hack man general manager who's voicing general manable plans to send most of the troops out to fight the termites I mean it's wild this really is to older audiences but his plan is to send all the troops loyal to the world.

[00:36:00] So the queen out to die at war so that he can start his new perfect colony that's all loyal to him so Z gets caught up in this fake kind of battle to go out and die.

[00:36:13] And this for me is when the movie gets kind of real you start to forget that their ants and you're all the sudden transported to this world because it really is like a war scene from a movie.

[00:36:25] Well the answer marching into battle Z engages with Bartobus who's voiced by Danny Glover and Z is expressing all of his various concerns in his Woody Allen-esque way about his inability to fight or his lack of desire to go to war or to die.

[00:36:44] And Bartobus is taking this in good humor and he says to Z at one point you know I really like you nobody makes me laugh like you do.

[00:36:53] Well Z ends up getting trapped under a termite during the battle and he misses most of it when he finally is able to get out from underneath that he comes out and finds the battlefield completely in ruin and everybody's been killed.

[00:37:08] Bartobus is dying on that battlefield minus his body and see approaches him and hears him say his last words and he realizes the horror of what's truly happened but not yet what the entire concept and reasoning for this battle was because as you say general mandible has a much more sinister plot in mine.

[00:37:36] The answer all working on a larger project in the colony they're building a tunnel that the general promises is going to bring riches and rewards but what in fact is happening is these creating a situation where he can wipe out the undesirables and then proceed with himself as the leader by marrying Princess Bala himself and then creating a race of ants in his own like a

[00:38:06] business. Yeah the uber mentioned ants that he's searching to create because he views all the work or answers kind of these feeble little creatures that are unnecessary it's a very military minded approach so you know he doesn't fully understand what the answer doing I came into the film hoping that it will be nostalgic for me I first watched and when there was on VHS the parents and

[00:38:35] watching it now I had mixed feelings especially with Woody Allen I'm not a huge fan of how Woody Allen speaks I believe it actually gives me anxiety listening to him on pretty much any of his films you and Laurie both just whiney he's so whiney he really is he got me too right I'm personally what he's persona is the neurotic nebush type care

[00:39:05] and that goes back to the 1960s and he was a stand-up comedian to begin with but in answer to your question Kyle in 92 he was revealed to be having an affair with his stepdaughter correct ostensibly his stepdaughter him and me a pharaoh were not married and they did not live together but he did engage in a sexual affair with her which resulted in a huge controversy me a pharaoh accused Woody Allen of molesting the

[00:39:34] daughter that they had me a pharaoh famously has adopted a number of kids and her and Woody Allen had two children together and they adopted two others and the daughter that they had together who he was accused of molesting there was a documentary series on HBO Max a couple of years ago called Alan versus Pharaoh that goes into the subject much more deeply and you know I have my own opinions about it

[00:40:04] and I'm not defending him whatsoever in fact I can tell you when that scandal broke in the 90s I twisted myself into a pretzel trying to explain it away as did many of his fans

[00:40:18] and the bottom line is whether or not you believe he molested his daughter or not it's still kind of weird that he married his stepdaughter

[00:40:26] and she was 21 and he was 56 at the time that they got together so yeah there's some questionable things in his personal life regardless of what you do or don't believe

[00:40:39] yeah I'm not bringing that up for laughs either after the whole me two movement I mean this is a thing where you go back and watch media with these people in it who at the time maybe the reputation wasn't what it is now

[00:40:55] so it's interesting to see that kind of character that he plays and he was in light of what happened it's kind of inescapable essentially when Z the ant comes back he's the only one that made it

[00:41:08] and he's presented to the queen and the princess so he finally gets to see her again and he kind of realizes he's had a dead end you know where the militaries effectively gonna silence him and now is his time to act

[00:41:23] so he kidnaps the princess balla he inadvertently kidnaps her because what he's actually doing is he's trying to get his hands on her and that's really the part that kind of set me back on my heels as we were watching the movie

[00:41:41] Z is literally just he's like a licking his lips that he's making all kinds of growling sexual oriented sounds towards his princess balla he goes around yeah he gives one of those yeah I totally forgot about that

[00:41:55] yeah and he's trying to put his hands on and the general is trying to pull him back from doing this yeah imagine if you just saw that scene with no context

[00:42:04] yeah he looks like a total creep ant well and in fact that's kind of the point is that you know what was charming or funny in 1998 doesn't play the same way yeah Woody Allen's quote-unquote charm in this movie aged like milk with Woody Allen I mean like my mom her heart kind of broke because of the scandal with him

[00:42:25] I noticed that the film itself is actually pretty toxic Z he's not a very good character he would like assault princess balla and he would make sexual marx through the whole movie and the relationship between princess balla and him is almost aligned with Stockholm syndrome

[00:42:42] princess balla has no reason to really get together see but how the plot is determined she ends up liking Z I guess because they find this a topia so for me this whole movie is as actually someone hard to watch

[00:42:59] I think Z is better than general mandible general mandible as an evil man he's trying to do eugenics right but that's the thing she's trapped away in this castle she's royalty it's not like she's on the basilar at and gets all these different options of different possible partner ants we can see especially with time you know that okay this isn't charm this is weird

[00:43:24] and what I was going to say earlier is that you know after the trash shoot balla's rightfully calling him a creep hey creep what are you doing I just went to go have fun and now you're touching me and this is sexual and in fact right after that Z's like oh you're not going to be the object of my sexual fantasies anymore

[00:43:44] yeah I'm sitting there after a couple beers going was that your idea of a bird like what's going on I hope Woody Allen has said this

[00:43:53] I couldn't imagine saying that my own life well I guess you're not going to be the object of my sexual fantasies anymore then walk away can you imagine saying that really what wow

[00:44:05] I'm not certain like what they were trying to do with the script writers and especially with hiring Woody Allen with his background saying these things that was all controversial at the time

[00:44:15] it's worth saying that it's not like people weren't talking about that in 1998 in 1998 what had happened five six years earlier was still problematic

[00:44:29] it's almost as though Hollywood had decided collectively that they were on Woody's side and they were going to press through whether Middle America wanted it or not

[00:44:41] and in 1998 the films that Woody was making he had made a film called Celebrity which starred Leonardo DiCaprio and Kenneth Branagh

[00:44:51] and that movie was a huge failure a sweet and lowdown with Sean Penn another huge failure he made another movie Hollywood ending another huge failure

[00:45:01] but he still had the pull to get like these relatively large actors into his movies well because his movies have always been very celebrated by the Academy Awards

[00:45:10] so actors want to work with him because working with Woody Allen is a surefire way to get an Academy Award nomination or potentially even win

[00:45:20] he himself has been nominated over 30 times for writing and directing his various films

[00:45:28] but you're right it isn't a quiet taste I mean even before his controversies he was not a mainstream comedian

[00:45:38] he was not a mainstream filmmaker his films were always more of the art house variety and it's interesting to me to know that your mom was a huge fan of his that was disappointed to find out what had happened

[00:45:50] because I felt the same way believe me 1992 when that scandal initially broke I was 21 years old I'd been watching his films for four or five years at that point

[00:45:59] and he was my favorite filmmaker and then to have that happen Laurie and I were discussing this last night when we were talking about these movies

[00:46:07] and I said I didn't want to believe that scandal I didn't want it to be true

[00:46:13] and as I mentioned when we first started talking about that topic here regardless of what you believe the fact remains a 56 year old man was marrying his 21 year old daughter of his ex girlfriend

[00:46:28] we've all been in society long enough I mean make your own call like most people arrive at the same conclusion there I'm absolutely with Avery on the point about Woody Allen

[00:46:41] I feel like it's a long Saturday morning cartoon that stars Woody Allen

[00:46:49] and he's just droning on and on and on throughout the whole movie and with the multitude of talent that's in this movie like you mentioned all those talented actors

[00:47:01] you wouldn't know it really they don't get a lot of good lines

[00:47:07] so let's or salon gets the best one line I think it's not no no no no we'll get to that later

[00:47:15] so once Z and Bala find themselves in the outside world Z is thinking I'm out I'm escaping I'm going to in sectopia Bala wants him to return her to the colony

[00:47:30] and he doesn't want to do it until they at least try and get to in sectopia first they arrive at what appears to be a human picnic thinking that they've gotten to in sectopia but all the food is wrapped

[00:47:43] and this is where they run into a couple of was played by Dan Acroid and Jane Curtain who are literally white Anglo-Saxon people in the form of was bugs

[00:47:55] yet they are my favorite characters of the movie seeing them on screen especially as an adult there's so much appreciation for you know that whole literal idea of a wasp and then oh but we have to help them

[00:48:09] they're so dirty and little and stupid oh I love you so much you have such a big heart maybe I mean frankly for me those wasps they steal the show immediately I loved every second they were on screen

[00:48:22] it's an intense scene too because you're introduced to them there's these tall scary wasps and real-life wasps sting you and they can keep stinging you and like a bee

[00:48:32] so the fact that they're these oh up amid a clasp wasp and then you know they're deciding what to do with the little poor dirty ants I love it even though one of them is a queen right I mean

[00:48:43] there are layers to this bug universe Muffy the Jane Curtain wasp is almost immediately killed by one of the humans at the picnic because needless say humans don't like wasps on their food

[00:48:57] and somebody pulls out a fly swatter and starts swinging it wildly at the bugs that are on the screen

[00:49:03] well they were making out you know I hate it when wasps make out at my picnic it distores the mood for me trying to go on a first day and set the mood I can't have wasps

[00:49:16] where do you guys surprised that ants would show clear deaths on the screen such as like the ant with a magnifying glass this gets completely fried

[00:49:26] weak lost over that scene but it's like immediately when the queen and Z leave the ant hill why don't they just get apprehended right away well a kid with a magnifying glass murders five of the army ants that emerged from the ant hill I mean so literally vaporized on screen

[00:49:43] yeah you know when I was around back then I think it'd be weirder if they had something like the wasp death you know 30 or 40 minutes into the movie and go oh that's the first instance but I think they're quick

[00:49:54] this is also when they're fighting the termites it's a graphic scene you see Danny Glover's character Barbados and decapitated

[00:50:02] and the aftermath of the war scene after the battle with the termites is quite harrowing because you can see the waste and the desegregation blood isn't there blood

[00:50:15] also well there's like that green there's a green acid yeah to remind us it's graphic it's quite a graphic series of scenes when the bugs are killed and you're right it is violent as well especially in comparison to a bug's life

[00:50:31] when we're watching it Jim says doesn't this remind you of starship troopers yeah when they're marching off and go the ants go marching one by one hurrah hurrah

[00:50:40] and then starship troopers it's a military society they're all happy to go marching off to their deaths and that's a great comparison actually why I didn't think of that did starship troopers come out after this one

[00:50:51] no as immediately before starship troopers came out 90 you gotta think like does some of these people talk to each other starship troopers was based on a book right am I going crazy no that's correct so so maybe again like this is what's so cool about media and creative works

[00:51:06] that you can be inspired by the same thing so it's like maybe someone who wrote ants was inspired by that book you know and that's why they wrote the marching scene

[00:51:15] you know I was talking to somebody that I work with this week about these movies and telling them that we were going to be discussing this on the podcast

[00:51:23] she said to me isn't it amazing how Hollywood has a way of releasing multiple movies with the same themes at the same time and I said that's not an accident

[00:51:33] just as this was not an accident that ants and bugs life all came out together it isn't an accident that you can have a series of body changing movies come out all at the same time.

[00:51:45] Hollywood is a very small community and they all work in the same field and they're all talking to the same people so if one idea starts circulating the network then a lot of different people are going to take that same idea and run with it and see what they can come up with and develop after that scene with the wasps you get

[00:52:06] Bala and Z having a good time so they get past the human with the fly swatter after being stepped on with some gum and then they're in the real bug to be there in the real bug paradise

[00:52:17] they ride the roller coaster or centipede whatever that is they're having a good time and you know one of the funniest parts of the movie at the end of their fun day and bug amusement park or whatever they're sitting around a fire

[00:52:30] and you have like these fly beetle dirty bugs and their cast is like stoner types and they're like whoa man this world so big this tastes like shit what do you think?

[00:52:42] yeah it tastes like shit great I thought that was great cutters introduced earlier in the movie but we like kind of formally introduced voice by Christopher walkin he's like the right hand man to the general mandible and you know he can fly

[00:52:57] so he sent out to find Bala because weaver Z's friend is interrogated about the whereabouts of Z and he says Z is that bug paradise?

[00:53:09] it's worth saying too that while Z and Bala are out in their world adventure together we also learn the true diabolical nature of general mandibles plan

[00:53:22] and how he's engaging cutter to execute that the reason why mandible is sending cutter to get Bala is because mandibles plan is to take over the colony and make Bala his bride and to kill all of the undesirables in the colony

[00:53:42] and for those who don't know I'm pretty sure the queens have all the kids so mandible literally needs Bala to make his new society to breed his new uber mentioned society of perfect dance that are loyal to him

[00:53:55] which of course are in his own image so he has a very distinctive idea of what constitutes the right yeah they're just blonde hair and blue eyed ants

[00:54:06] and that's not an accident either it's worth pointing out to what is the context of the time that these movies were made

[00:54:13] these films were both released in 1998 so they're made in the latter part of the 20th century in a post-soviet post-cold war world

[00:54:24] where in the mid 90s you have ethnic cleansing going on throughout eastern Europe and America is at a stage where it's unsteady and uncertain is to what role it's gonna play as the lone superpower

[00:54:40] what do you think is the influence of those external events upon the productions of this movie in particular in both movies generally

[00:54:48] well it's hard to tell because those themes of the evil maniacal dictator who wants to cleanse the society I mean that goes back to late 19th century science with Francis Gaulten who cousin of Charles Darwin

[00:55:03] quote unquote founder of eugenics but really he just studied a lot of that but that's where these ideas of oh I can breed the tallest plant okay well maybe I can breed the perfect human and then you go into

[00:55:15] you know the early 20th century and a lot of those ideas still resonated strongly so it's really hard to say where that came from but you still had those ideas I mean when did the apartheid itself Africa and that wasn't necessarily eugenics but I mean it's still apartheid

[00:55:32] and so there's still some foundational concepts there of hey these people are just inherently better than these people

[00:55:39] these movies are made in light of the uncertainty that was going on socially culturally and geopolitically

[00:55:46] and I think you could speak more to that I mean because I can guess but I mean I really wasn't around back then I mean did it feel like these two movies coming out around the same time

[00:55:55] were kind of on the nose of what was happening when you look back at like what news was like back then I think at the time I just took them

[00:56:02] like they were theoretically intended to be which was sent to your bug they were animated movies about bugs I mean in reflection yes it's always easier to analyze themes

[00:56:17] and put it into context culturally yeah I think oftentimes a lot of historians do this to where what if they just made movies about bugs and it was just spitballed

[00:56:29] I mean because inherently bugs are kind of socialistic communist creatures you know I mean so it's kind of hard not to brush up against that when your anthropomorphizing them

[00:56:40] but I think historians tend to do this too where it's like well they did make this movie about bugs but I think really what they were trying to talk about was you go slavvy

[00:56:49] and the apartheid and you know all these ideas about eugenic I mean because it's entirely possible that I mean they weren't going that deep into the politics right or that it wasn't some subconscious thing

[00:56:58] but that is just a coincidence right I mean that could be a thing to or it's entirely possible that it was intended but nobody saw it at the time

[00:57:06] because they were either impressed or unimpressed by the production values of the film that's exactly yeah and there's that a sense it's animated it's that abstraction from reality

[00:57:17] now another factor to is while Zimbala are out in the world simultaneous to mandible making his plans towards the partial extinction of his colony

[00:57:29] the remaining worker ants are starting to revolt against the existing order because they realize that the workers control the means of production

[00:57:38] and supervisors start pushing the ants to work and literally at one point one of the ants looks in right and the ants is why

[00:57:46] what are the Marxist implications of the thinking of these characters?

[00:57:51] there are elements of dictatorship, militarism, oppression and visual and all that but at the end of the day I think it's still a children's movie right it's still for a year younger age and it just so happened that they allowed more adult elements into the film itself

[00:58:11] it's hard for me to say what type of influence really is in the film how much symbolism how much deeper meaning is there

[00:58:19] as you were watching these movies avery did you find yourself thinking about these concepts could you see the implications of authoritarianism or eugenics or fascism through these characterizations

[00:58:34] well not for bucks life but for ants I saw more lines of if you have someone who's trying to take over the world

[00:58:40] you know and like all super hero movies I'm just gonna go to hero and take over the world and rule the world

[00:58:46] I don't really think about the politics or the deeper meaning behind that

[00:58:52] I was very distracted by Z the character himself I actually felt like the movie was very weak when it was revolved around Z

[00:59:03] and the supporting characters actually have a lot more character behind them such as the relationship between cutter and general mandible

[00:59:13] if you notice there's a lot of subtle expressions on cutter's face that shows him still a doubting what mandible is saying

[00:59:20] or you have weaver weaver was tortured by general mandible and weaver refused to try and give up information about Z

[00:59:29] these are small moments but I believe they're much more powerful than Z's honestly creepiness towards bala and the whole time

[00:59:38] I just could not get over the fact that princess bala went through Stockholm syndrome

[00:59:42] Avery I agree with you I don't think enough time was given to that wonderful supporting cast

[00:59:49] As Tekka and weaver like their relationship was I think more genuine weaver is obviously a I guess you can say a handsome huge and

[01:00:00] and their interaction is more convincing to me they just start out with like a date

[01:00:06] that's how it should be versus Z inadvertently or maybe somewhat purposefully kidnapping Princess Balala

[01:00:14] yeah I mean and you're touching on kind of an older cinematic trope which is the male love interest can kind of be a creep

[01:00:22] and it's okay because they end up together the main love interest is kind of creepy but it's okay at the end because they end up together

[01:00:28] persistence is considered charm I think by then it currently now I just don't see it like that

[01:00:35] it's weird in both ways right so it's weird because it almost indirectly teaches men that hey if you're persistent like this

[01:00:43] in their face persistent then that's okay and then on the other hand it kind of shows women okay well if the guy you like is

[01:00:50] kind of like overly persistent like this it's also okay you know it's unhealthy from both ends

[01:00:56] I also wanted to note that this week Laurie and I watched hot tub time machine starring John Q

[01:01:05] Zach and in that film he played guess what divorced poet he's divorced poet writer well

[01:01:14] and here's the thing I've been thinking a lot about this too and if I ever get divorced I'm just going to die

[01:01:18] whatever here I have left black and start writing this is the only way maybe knockout the sun for three years

[01:01:26] and you know I'll start looking like John Q

[01:01:28] walk around in a trench coat so essentially and again we get introduced to the wasp they have a

[01:01:36] fun day in the insentopia you find the husband was played by Dan Acroid getting absolutely hammered in a liquor bottle

[01:01:46] and you know bottle is just taken back by cutter and he's like how am I going to get home and completely hammered Dan Acroid

[01:01:56] as a wasp is like oh go find your love so lost I'll help you

[01:02:01] Muffy would have wanted me to help you

[01:02:03] Oh my god you guys don't off by that scene this is my favorite part of the movie he was the wasps

[01:02:08] I was very thrown off by like the Day of Sex and Oxenov version of is that I mean it's the right phrase where just the plot is

[01:02:15] the hero has no other way to get out but some kind of miracle happens and then they can proceed on with the story

[01:02:22] I know what you're talking about I don't agree with you because it sets up the fact that that was one would want to help this guy who's in love out

[01:02:30] because he just lost his love wasps would totally be at a picnic and his wife's like dying wish was to help these ants

[01:02:38] and three it's established that the wasps are lovers so it makes sense that this wasp would want to help an ant that's in love and trying to help his love it

[01:02:49] it does do some legwork and setting that up I actually disagree I think the wasp are very random have you been outside

[01:02:58] first off there's not only just two wasps and they don't just hover around a picnic you know

[01:03:04] well and also ants don't carry spears and go to war I mean we got to take some liberty here when we're answer for more

[01:03:10] for size like they tried to emphasize the relationship between the wasps they kill the female wasps

[01:03:16] and then they make the male one the chip really drunk and then he goes and decides to encounter Z in this size

[01:03:26] just taken back to the end hill and then he just flies away and that's it there's there's a sad depressed drunk

[01:03:36] just lost his wife wasp I think it's very well they look two points here one avery is an it so no he doesn't like going outside

[01:03:46] and to once Z returns to the colony he has now uncovered the ultimate fate awaiting the rest of his ants

[01:03:58] he discovers what mandibles plan is weaver has been sent to the front lines to complete the construction of the tunnel

[01:04:05] which is leading directly under a lake which is going to flood the tunnel and then kill all the quote and quote undesirables

[01:04:14] so Z quickly finds Bala and finds weaver and tells them to stop production on the tunnel immediately but it's too late

[01:04:24] and the tunnel becomes flooded and the only way that the ants are going to survive is if they work together

[01:04:32] and this is a direct contrast from Z's character at the beginning of the movie when we first meet Z he's completely self-absorbed

[01:04:40] he's completely selfish he's motivated strictly by a self-interest he doesn't really care about the other ants

[01:04:47] and sees his initial goal as escape once he meets the princess his goal changes into more of a social climbing sort of thing

[01:04:55] he pretends to be the soldier in order to get closer to her and then pretends to be a war hero in order to be with her

[01:05:02] but once he understands the true result of the tunnel that the ants have been building

[01:05:07] Z finally becomes concerned with the colony at large and leads them all to work together to overthrow the fascist leadership

[01:05:16] now I guess based on what all of you guys are saying nobody here really finds that to be a believable character arc

[01:05:24] I find it to be too serious for its own good for an animated movie that is supposed to be for children

[01:05:33] I think it would be weird watching this movie as a kid and I wish I could travel back in time and speak to myself

[01:05:42] and be like what did you think about that movie?

[01:05:45] We spent a lot of this conversation about this movie talking about fairly adult topics

[01:05:49] I'd say mostly adult topics

[01:05:52] it'd be interesting to bring back ten-year-old Kyle and be like what do you think of the movie?

[01:05:57] I liked it the ants were ants I mean like what would a kid watching this movie do right?

[01:06:01] and like you said it was kind of directed more towards you know an adult audience there

[01:06:06] so I'm about to turn 28 soon

[01:06:08] there's this fun phrase at work we like to say where as we've worked at our job for a while

[01:06:14] and we're starting to you know care more about things around us

[01:06:18] it's not you get old you sell out it's you get old and you buy it

[01:06:22] so you put more yourself in and you have more to lose right so essentially what's going on is you take the most

[01:06:28] mis-entropic outcast kind of ant who's like oh I'm completely selfish I want to explore the world

[01:06:34] whatever you know and you know you could argue about the ethics of this ant

[01:06:39] but essentially you know he's given the top female ant

[01:06:43] and especially in a situation where she's gonna be queen one day and that's top of the social hierarchy

[01:06:49] now Z he's bought in he has a lot to lose

[01:06:54] there's no other path you can take where he can be with a queen and a whole colony right so I mean

[01:07:01] you know now that he has a lot to lose because he's effectively bought in now Z is like okay

[01:07:08] you know we got to save these ants I'm extremely bought in

[01:07:11] that's partially why he goes back to help ball out

[01:07:14] so we're at the end and I think the movie does a good job because it shows that in fact

[01:07:20] the ants aren't inferior in contrast to I'd say a movie like Wally where the humans are shown to be

[01:07:27] like these completely incompetent people it's alluded to that these are inferior ants

[01:07:33] and I love that the movie shows you at the end when they build the huge tower

[01:07:38] and they work together under these circumstances and there's a queen there

[01:07:42] and they save everyone you know and they're working together I love that although the movie says

[01:07:47] you know through the mandible hey these are inferior ants it goes to great lengths

[01:07:52] to show you they're not and in fact you know the water floods the tunnel they build the tower up

[01:07:58] and this is when cutter he looks at the tower and the lengths that they've gone to

[01:08:04] and I love how every point of this out you can subtly see that

[01:08:08] cutter's heart is in the right place he the Colonel loves a colony

[01:08:12] and he thinks that general mandible is the colony that he has the colony's best interested heart

[01:08:18] and I love how towards the end we see cutter change to go oh wait no these are incredibly capable ants

[01:08:25] you just have these selfish ideals and you desire power

[01:08:29] right so that whole arc at the end where cutter comes through

[01:08:33] and he saves Z kind of saves the day I just think it wraps up perfectly

[01:08:39] and honestly I thoroughly enjoyed this movie I don't know what do you guys think

[01:08:44] you guys mentioned a lot of influences that the movie can have

[01:08:48] I forgot to think that the first maybe 10 minutes of the movie was probably the most interesting part about it

[01:08:55] to start off with the Z the character I think his monologue as an ant who is conflicted with individualism

[01:09:04] and his place in the colony especially when he starts talking to weaver who feels like he clearly knows his place in the colony

[01:09:13] this friendship and this dynamic and especially how they portray the colony on a grand scale

[01:09:19] was much more interesting until it started just to throw Z into strange situations

[01:09:27] like he just just so happens that the day he switches spots with weaver

[01:09:31] he gets into a war and then he ends up getting thrown out of the trash shoe with Princess Bala

[01:09:36] then he ends up finding a picnic where he just somehow finds wasp and gets into the gum underneath his shoe

[01:09:44] and gets into a topey and then comes back to me his arc is very very unbelievable

[01:09:49] it's a very shallow to me I believe that his character was in my opinion quite difficult to work with

[01:09:56] by imagining a screenplay his character will be difficult to work with on redemption

[01:10:01] how conflicted he was in the beginning

[01:10:03] and the entire time he's actually a very selfish character

[01:10:09] and I don't believe that the experiences that he got through would allow him to magically become selfless

[01:10:17] and think about the colony

[01:10:19] that's my argument though and that's why I disagree with you because I don't think it's about him becoming selfless

[01:10:24] I just think it's about him going oh now I have something to lose

[01:10:28] you know he's pontificating as some kind of ant intellectual about his status in life

[01:10:34] and he's envious of other people etc etc but he has nothing to lose

[01:10:39] no one cares about him as people start to care about him and as he has stuff to lose

[01:10:44] then I think he exhibits what resembles selflessness

[01:10:49] but I don't really think so I just think now things are going the way I want them

[01:10:53] and I want to lose this so I think it aligns with his characters

[01:10:57] what I'm trying to say

[01:10:58] you know I agree with you it does align with his character there is no redemption

[01:11:01] the only reason why he ends up going back to the colonies for Princess Bala

[01:11:06] his own selfishity he wants Princess Bala

[01:11:08] but as Princess Bala wants to help the colony survive

[01:11:10] so what does he end up doing?

[01:11:11] he tries to help the colony survive

[01:11:13] and how many people in the world today are motivated by things like that

[01:11:18] that's a fairly common thing

[01:11:19] I don't think everyone is altruistic and selfless in their motivations

[01:11:23] right?

[01:11:24] I think at the end of the day you know people are genuinely motivated

[01:11:28] by they may care about one person

[01:11:31] and that care for their child or that one person causes them to you know

[01:11:36] appreciate themselves into a community

[01:11:38] this is why I believe the supporting cast was much more powerful

[01:11:42] or much more interestingly like especially Qatar

[01:11:44] especially Qatar yeah

[01:11:46] who clearly fully believed Mandible

[01:11:48] then ended up betraying Mandible himself as he realized what the true colony

[01:11:52] and you hit the nail in the head

[01:11:54] Qatar has the real character or a character right?

[01:11:56] you can make a movie about Qatar if you really wanted to

[01:11:59] because he's the one that actually really changed

[01:12:02] it seems like Z didn't really change

[01:12:05] is what you're trying to say

[01:12:07] he just kind of got more stuff and didn't want to lose that stuff

[01:12:10] whereas Qatar was like oh I'm a patriot

[01:12:13] I follow my general I love my colony

[01:12:15] oh wait these things aren't as they seem

[01:12:17] you know maybe I need to change the way I view the work grants

[01:12:21] I think a final note we wanted to touch on this real quick was

[01:12:25] Avery and I both liked the scene at the end

[01:12:29] when the camera zooms out

[01:12:31] and you see that all the events of the movie have taken place

[01:12:34] it's your favorite one

[01:12:35] yeah and effectively a water fountain a trash can and an out hill

[01:12:39] yeah all about being humans as we can visualize

[01:12:42] like that's only four square feet

[01:12:44] yet all of this drama is taking place

[01:12:46] that's foreshadowed by some of the bugs sitting around the trash can

[01:12:50] because one of them says

[01:12:53] can you imagine man we're all in this tiny little bubble

[01:12:57] and that there's this whole other world that we're not even aware of

[01:13:00] man

[01:13:01] the stoner bug

[01:13:02] the movie clearly has moments where they're trying to show

[01:13:05] the scale of how small the ants really are

[01:13:08] I would like to think that that line of dialogue is influenced by some stone scenes and days to confuse

[01:13:14] this is the GMR

[01:13:16] maybe at some point my life when I'm really living in the spirit

[01:13:20] of live like there's no tomorrow I might shove a whole piece of cake in my mouth or at least a time to fly right

[01:13:25] stay in school and don't do drugs

[01:13:27] everything's gonna work out okay

[01:13:29] speaking about American propaganda

[01:13:31] his daughter he's scary

[01:13:33] a 80 year old Kyle

[01:13:35] look at the haters

[01:13:36] we've been together for 20 years now

[01:13:39] and I can't believe neither one of you sees the wolf in me

[01:13:44] the generations movie review podcast

[01:13:50] the next movie we're going to talk about a bugs life

[01:13:53] came out a few months later

[01:13:55] and has very similar themes

[01:13:58] to ants

[01:14:00] but is told in a much different way

[01:14:03] the first thing that I notice when comparing and contrasting bugs life to ants

[01:14:10] is a bugs life is much brighter

[01:14:13] it's much more cheerful

[01:14:15] has a much more fun spirit to it than ants does

[01:14:21] ants is a much darker film

[01:14:24] what were your general impressions on a bugs life

[01:14:27] avery

[01:14:28] again these were very nostalgic movies for me

[01:14:31] I immediately noticed the higher quality of animation

[01:14:34] in terms of you know a Pixar film

[01:14:37] I only have positive notes from the production side of it

[01:14:40] really how cute the characters and how they look

[01:14:44] but otherwise you know

[01:14:47] I had similar issues with the characters themselves as well

[01:14:51] like ants

[01:14:53] I watched a bugs life after ants

[01:14:55] and there are these traditional ideas of like masculine and feminine

[01:15:01] and ants struck me as a more masculine kind of ant colony

[01:15:05] there are a lot of big you know general ant male ants all of them were there

[01:15:10] and then you hop over to bugs life

[01:15:12] and it's kind of my big first note especially going from ants to bugs life

[01:15:16] is that it seems like flick or would be protagonist

[01:15:19] it's like the only of age male

[01:15:22] in the entire colony right

[01:15:24] it's like a very fun it they're on their island

[01:15:27] there's really nothing to worry about

[01:15:28] they're all just playing around

[01:15:29] the color palette is more diverse

[01:15:32] it's more bright it has lighter colors in it

[01:15:35] so that was immediately the first thing that jumped out of me

[01:15:38] which didn't surprise me

[01:15:39] it is a Pixar movie

[01:15:41] in fact I can't think of a Pixar movie that's a drab

[01:15:45] I mean even Wally takes us into space

[01:15:49] where it has a wide color palette

[01:15:51] even though the planet is kind of brown

[01:15:53] I immediately noticed that the animation just seemed a step above

[01:15:58] without a doubt

[01:15:59] maybe several steps

[01:16:01] absolutely

[01:16:02] also just to kind of bring this full circle

[01:16:06] even though there maybe weren't as many movie stars

[01:16:11] in a bugs life

[01:16:13] I think the characters themselves were miles above the characters in ants

[01:16:20] In a bugs life we meet flick

[01:16:23] who is something of an innovator within his community

[01:16:29] he fancies himself as something of an inventor

[01:16:32] and he's always looking for ways to make the work that they have to do all summer long

[01:16:38] a little easier

[01:16:40] as mentioned they all live on ant island

[01:16:43] and we discover as the plot unfolds

[01:16:46] that a lot of the work that they're doing right now is on behalf of grasshoppers

[01:16:51] led by hopper

[01:16:52] who have literally colonized this ant colony

[01:16:58] by offering protection in exchange for half the food that the ants gather

[01:17:06] during the course of the summer

[01:17:07] so that the grasshoppers can survive through the winter

[01:17:11] as we meet our ant friends

[01:17:13] they're wrapping up the gathering of the food

[01:17:17] and hoppers return with his grasshopper

[01:17:19] cohorts is eminent

[01:17:21] but through a series of

[01:17:24] inadvertent accidents flick

[01:17:27] ends up destroying the supply of food that they've gathered

[01:17:31] hopper immediately upon arrival discovers that their food is gone

[01:17:37] and despite the protestations from Princess Adda

[01:17:40] hopper is enraged

[01:17:42] and demands that the ants double the order

[01:17:45] and the grasshoppers will return when the last leaf falls off the tree

[01:17:50] needless to say the ant colony is terrified by the threats and the tone of hopper

[01:17:57] flick develops an idea

[01:18:00] he says why don't we hire our own soldiers, our own bigger bugs

[01:18:06] to defend against these grasshoppers

[01:18:10] and then we don't have to worry about them ever again

[01:18:13] because the colony finds flick

[01:18:17] to be good-hearted but clumsy and ineffective at helping

[01:18:22] they're quick to say yeah great idea flick

[01:18:25] why don't you go do that and get out of our faces so that we can start gathering

[01:18:29] this food because they're all terrified the grasshoppers are going to come back

[01:18:32] and there isn't enough food for everybody

[01:18:34] it was notable for me again watching this movie after ants

[01:18:37] that although flick makes mistakes

[01:18:40] that inadvertently end up hurting the colony

[01:18:44] his heart is always in the place of

[01:18:47] I care about the colony above myself

[01:18:51] he's a direct contrast to Z

[01:18:53] Z had no interest in anybody but himself

[01:18:56] whereas flick is only concerned with everybody else

[01:18:59] the fact that flick accidentally

[01:19:02] disposes of the food supply

[01:19:05] is all of a sudden start contrast to ants

[01:19:09] where nominally both of the main characters make a huge mistake

[01:19:13] so an ants and we didn't cover this

[01:19:16] but they have to make a wrecking ball of ants

[01:19:19] which we don't have an expert here

[01:19:22] I don't know if they do that or not

[01:19:24] maybe that was just like an animating thing

[01:19:27] or they just wrote that into the story

[01:19:29] but Z drops the amp ball

[01:19:31] he literally drops the ball

[01:19:33] but then in this movie flick does the same thing

[01:19:36] what's notable though is that in ants

[01:19:38] Z's actions have no consequences on anything

[01:19:41] there to show that Z's a weekend

[01:19:44] or doesn't care or whatever

[01:19:45] but in this movie it has direct consequences

[01:19:47] it kind of starts the story

[01:19:49] so then executing his plan

[01:19:52] flick then goes to the city

[01:19:55] which turns out to be a trash heap

[01:19:57] a few yards away from the ant colony

[01:19:59] and it's there that he's searching

[01:20:02] out for quote unquote strong bugs

[01:20:05] well before he arrives

[01:20:08] we meet the circus troupe

[01:20:11] the troupe of jobless bugs

[01:20:14] who are charming and well-intentioned

[01:20:18] but not particularly good at their circus performances

[01:20:23] and they end up creating havoc in the city

[01:20:27] just in time for flick to arrive

[01:20:30] and see what appears

[01:20:33] to be the victorious circus bugs

[01:20:38] taking out their victims

[01:20:40] which is not actually what occurs

[01:20:43] but that's what flick sees

[01:20:45] and they see flick as something of a talent agent

[01:20:50] somebody looking to hire them

[01:20:52] as a troupe to come and appear

[01:20:54] in what they characterize as dinner theater

[01:20:57] because they misunderstand what flick is saying to them

[01:21:00] it's part of the fact that they're also looking for reasons

[01:21:04] to change the scenery up

[01:21:06] I think they have a visceral understanding

[01:21:10] based on the reception of all the flies

[01:21:12] that they're trying to entertain

[01:21:13] that they're perhaps not doing a good job

[01:21:17] or maybe they just haven't found their target audience

[01:21:20] I think the way that Pixar does this bug troupe

[01:21:25] that it takes these disparate bugs

[01:21:28] and makes them into a circus act

[01:21:30] I think that's an example of what Pixar does best

[01:21:34] to really think about it

[01:21:36] it takes two different universes

[01:21:38] and then brings them together

[01:21:40] in this weird creative way

[01:21:42] and would you have thought of that before?

[01:21:45] Oh, it's a bug circus

[01:21:46] here's a black widow

[01:21:48] who's a widow

[01:21:49] a lot of that stuff is kind of cheesy

[01:21:51] on the nose

[01:21:52] where the stick is the stick

[01:21:54] the ladybug gets mistaken for a lady

[01:21:56] I mean all of them are literally just

[01:21:58] you know plays on their name

[01:22:00] but I mean look I think it's kind of what

[01:22:02] Pixar does best there

[01:22:04] I mean I was kind of reminded of like

[01:22:06] finding Nemo where it had like

[01:22:08] the literal schools of fish

[01:22:10] and the field trip

[01:22:11] and it's like I think they did a really good job there

[01:22:13] Let's call out the individual members of the troupe

[01:22:16] we have a slim

[01:22:18] who is the stick bug

[01:22:19] my single favorite joke in the entire movie

[01:22:23] is when he's saying

[01:22:25] I'm always being cast as a prop

[01:22:27] and P.T. Flee

[01:22:29] voiced by John Ratsenberger

[01:22:31] says to him

[01:22:32] exasperated

[01:22:33] because you're a stick

[01:22:35] you're a stick

[01:22:37] be funny and be a stick

[01:22:39] we then also have

[01:22:41] Francis the ladybug

[01:22:43] who everybody automatically assumes

[01:22:46] is a female

[01:22:47] because he's a ladybug

[01:22:49] but it turns out that he's actually a male

[01:22:51] and I think there's actually some broader implications of that

[01:22:55] in 2024 that actually play pretty positively

[01:22:58] in a way that probably wasn't intended in 1998

[01:23:01] I think that's certainly probably

[01:23:03] one of those things that

[01:23:05] wasn't really good enough to work out there

[01:23:07] Manny is the English accented

[01:23:11] pre-Mantis

[01:23:13] and Gypsy is his wife

[01:23:15] the moth and Gypsy has the beautiful wingspan

[01:23:19] behind plays the black widow spider

[01:23:21] and Dim is the rhinoceros beetle

[01:23:25] he kind of flies the whole troop around

[01:23:27] he is voiced by Brad Garrett

[01:23:29] how can I forget

[01:23:31] I'm working

[01:23:33] the German accent

[01:23:35] and Kavler who's insisting

[01:23:37] despite all appearances

[01:23:39] that he's going to be a beautiful butterfly

[01:23:41] they are very charming

[01:23:43] and very funny

[01:23:45] and like you say, amongst

[01:23:47] many things that Pixar does very well

[01:23:48] in this time period

[01:23:50] this is literally the golden age of Pixar

[01:23:52] is the late 90s

[01:23:54] they had an amazing run of films

[01:23:56] and ironically a bug's life

[01:23:58] kind of tends to get forgotten

[01:24:00] in the sweep of the great films that they made

[01:24:04] but watching it and comparing it

[01:24:06] and contrasting it to ants

[01:24:08] the production values are

[01:24:10] outstanding

[01:24:12] the voice cast is outstanding

[01:24:14] the plot developments are executed

[01:24:16] expertly

[01:24:18] it's a very

[01:24:20] intelligent entertaining film

[01:24:22] but it's also

[01:24:24] much more geared towards the younger audience

[01:24:26] in a way that ants was not

[01:24:28] what's the toy story too

[01:24:30] that came out after a bug's life

[01:24:32] yeah so I mean

[01:24:34] literally it was sandwiched

[01:24:36] between two better movies

[01:24:38] but the thing is they're all great

[01:24:40] so I think that's why it tends to get forgotten

[01:24:42] and then you know

[01:24:44] you have finding Nemo and Incredibles

[01:24:46] nearly two thousand and it's like oh forget about it

[01:24:48] so this means that you guys

[01:24:50] really had a good impression of a bug's life

[01:24:52] I definitely have watched

[01:24:54] a bug's life probably 10-15 times

[01:24:56] and whenever I

[01:24:58] go back to it

[01:25:00] I always walk away

[01:25:02] remembering it in a very positive light

[01:25:04] I mean this could have been a terrible situation

[01:25:06] if you really think about it

[01:25:08] I mean what if ants in a bug's life

[01:25:10] were way too similar

[01:25:12] that would have been pretty bad

[01:25:14] I mean on the surface

[01:25:16] and you know read in a screen playing

[01:25:18] they're very similar

[01:25:20] but watching them again

[01:25:22] they're you know the color palettes are different

[01:25:24] they're thematically

[01:25:26] pretty different

[01:25:28] they're geared towards different audiences

[01:25:30] so I immediately

[01:25:32] appreciated that when I started to watch a bug's life

[01:25:34] from like I've been in for a different experience

[01:25:36] here although they're roughly

[01:25:38] trying to tell the same story about

[01:25:40] some kind of ant

[01:25:42] we've already identified these differences

[01:25:44] with the main character but I mean

[01:25:46] they're kind of different movies

[01:25:48] and I really did appreciate that

[01:25:50] I suppose like if I was your grandma

[01:25:52] and grandpa

[01:25:54] they would seem exactly the same

[01:25:56] that they'd be like yeah it's a couple of movies

[01:25:58] about some bugs

[01:26:00] and their kids' movies because they're animated

[01:26:02] it's only when you sit down and watch them

[01:26:04] and you analyze those themes

[01:26:06] and you have

[01:26:08] the Grasshoppers promising

[01:26:10] quote-unquote protection

[01:26:12] in exchange for this food

[01:26:14] and I couldn't help but think about some of the American geopolitical strategies

[01:26:18] of the 20th century especially circa 1998

[01:26:22] and how what we were doing was

[01:26:26] only then beginning to be seen as

[01:26:28] not necessarily positive

[01:26:30] I agree the Grasshoppers being both

[01:26:32] I mean there isn't technology here

[01:26:34] but each Grasshopper is

[01:26:36] stronger relative to an ant

[01:26:38] right and they're

[01:26:40] literally oppressing the ants

[01:26:42] but it's a psychological game

[01:26:46] because they're not completely

[01:26:48] dominating the ants with their power

[01:26:50] they're just making it seem like

[01:26:52] they dominate the ants

[01:26:54] it's kind of like one of those stories

[01:26:56] you know like a colonization kind of story

[01:26:58] like oh there's a few of them

[01:27:00] really high-techs so they're able to come in and bully

[01:27:02] and kind of take control

[01:27:04] like I can kind of see that aspect

[01:27:06] now either you asked that question

[01:27:08] then you had kind of alluded to earlier

[01:27:10] that you still came away

[01:27:12] with a more problematic experience

[01:27:14] in watching a bugs live

[01:27:16] yes for me I actually found

[01:27:18] a difficult to like flick

[01:27:20] he is a inventor

[01:27:22] who is clumsy

[01:27:24] I think this trope is

[01:27:26] cliche what's another example of a

[01:27:28] clumsy inventor

[01:27:30] I think it's just from the anime

[01:27:32] that I've watched throughout the years

[01:27:34] that I just find this

[01:27:36] at the time it probably was more

[01:27:38] new and as a child

[01:27:40] I did not notice this

[01:27:42] but now watching from all

[01:27:44] the movies and TV shows

[01:27:46] and anime that I've seen

[01:27:48] this trope is not very fun

[01:27:50] for me to watch

[01:27:52] as someone who is

[01:27:54] invented he should be more

[01:27:56] but flick in the bugs live

[01:27:58] is completely unaware

[01:28:00] of really what he's doing

[01:28:02] besides the immediate action

[01:28:04] such as when he

[01:28:06] smashes princess aada

[01:28:08] with the two grain stocks twice

[01:28:10] I thought that was actually pretty funny

[01:28:12] but he doesn't even notice

[01:28:14] and I'm searching he would just keep on doing

[01:28:16] until someone eventually

[01:28:18] until he notices or behind

[01:28:20] he inadvertently

[01:28:22] he just throws his

[01:28:24] body and his body

[01:28:26] and then he just

[01:28:28] completely messes up the food

[01:28:30] he's a very unaware person

[01:28:32] he's actually very line-eaved too

[01:28:34] he thinks that these problems

[01:28:36] are easily solved with

[01:28:38] just some idea he can think of

[01:28:40] it's almost as though

[01:28:42] he thinks he's smarter than everybody else

[01:28:44] he kind of does

[01:28:46] he thinks that he can solve

[01:28:48] any problem he just has to

[01:28:50] think of an idea

[01:28:52] frequently references

[01:28:54] squishing bugs so hopper

[01:28:56] is a killer

[01:28:58] and I think flick

[01:29:00] is scared to hopper

[01:29:02] I don't believe flick really understood

[01:29:04] the gravity of the situation

[01:29:06] and the movie kept it

[01:29:08] being very lighthearted

[01:29:10] which at the end

[01:29:12] the supporting cast was more interesting

[01:29:14] to watch the circus box

[01:29:16] was more interesting to watch

[01:29:18] hopper's brother

[01:29:20] so much more funny

[01:29:22] to watch

[01:29:24] then flick with his

[01:29:26] idealistic nature

[01:29:28] I think flick is charming

[01:29:30] because of that

[01:29:32] because he's just

[01:29:34] he's striving so

[01:29:36] hard to be more than what

[01:29:38] he is

[01:29:40] he has this yearning to be

[01:29:42] something he doesn't know quite

[01:29:44] what it is and he doesn't have

[01:29:46] all the smarts

[01:29:48] and he's just trying to

[01:29:50] invent these things

[01:29:52] to help the colony be better

[01:29:54] flick's naive

[01:29:56] even though he's good

[01:29:58] intention but there's an

[01:30:00] element of arrogance to him

[01:30:02] that I see in what you're saying

[01:30:04] Avery, I think that

[01:30:06] he's almost flippant

[01:30:08] in the way that he approaches

[01:30:10] the danger that is facing

[01:30:12] the colony

[01:30:14] and then flick

[01:30:16] that is facing the colony

[01:30:18] because he just thinks

[01:30:20] there's a solution to everything

[01:30:22] don't worry I'm just going to figure it out

[01:30:24] and I'll get it handled

[01:30:26] and I'll go and save the colony

[01:30:28] he just takes that for granted

[01:30:30] and that arrogance

[01:30:32] I can see can be grading

[01:30:34] to a point

[01:30:36] and it doesn't have

[01:30:38] the same sincerity

[01:30:40] that the rest of the bugs do

[01:30:42] because the circus troop

[01:30:44] is going to get the

[01:30:45] rest of the colony

[01:30:47] the ants are actually

[01:30:49] impressed by them

[01:30:51] but it's at that point

[01:30:53] that flick and the circus troop

[01:30:55] realize that they've

[01:30:57] inadvertently misled each other

[01:30:59] flick is not a talent agent

[01:31:01] looking to hire for some dinner

[01:31:03] theater

[01:31:05] he needs help in protecting

[01:31:07] the colony

[01:31:09] so that they don't have to

[01:31:11] gather the food

[01:31:13] bugs aren't strong bigger bugs

[01:31:16] that can protect them

[01:31:18] but they both agree

[01:31:20] to continue the deceit of the rest

[01:31:22] of the colony

[01:31:23] because it works in both

[01:31:24] their interests

[01:31:26] I had a problem with this too

[01:31:27] the plot of the movie is

[01:31:29] almost

[01:31:29] built on a lie

[01:31:31] that will inevitably

[01:31:33] be brought

[01:31:34] to the

[01:31:35] broader front

[01:31:36] and then

[01:31:37] all the circus

[01:31:38] bugs and flick

[01:31:39] it exiled

[01:31:40] it was almost

[01:31:42] a

[01:31:44] big

[01:31:45] I know that flake and the bugs are

[01:31:47] lying first of the

[01:31:49] didn't understand each other

[01:31:51] which I know is not unrealistic

[01:31:53] encroach because it's a

[01:31:55] Pixar children's movie

[01:31:57] but just simple communication

[01:31:59] could have solved this initial

[01:32:01] problem

[01:32:03] but they decided to just push it on

[01:32:05] there's some simplistic plot

[01:32:07] developing they just double down

[01:32:09] and then of course

[01:32:11] like messed up this entire thing

[01:32:12] these aren't even warriors

[01:32:14] we spent

[01:32:15] this entire season trying to fight against

[01:32:18] hopper and what do they do?

[01:32:19] they build a fake

[01:32:20] they build up like a fake

[01:32:21] like this

[01:32:21] like this is just a crazy idea

[01:32:24] that I think flake again

[01:32:26] you know bringing back to his

[01:32:27] naivety he just thinks that

[01:32:28] this idea is just going to work

[01:32:29] it just has to work

[01:32:31] we're just going to build a

[01:32:31] fake bird we're going to make it

[01:32:33] look like a plane

[01:32:33] and move its wings

[01:32:35] and fly it around

[01:32:35] and then somehow hopper's just

[01:32:37] going to

[01:32:37] leave forever

[01:32:39] it's kind of this weird

[01:32:40] situation right so it's like

[01:32:42] I think what you're describing is

[01:32:43] this is an unlikely

[01:32:45] situation to work

[01:32:46] this whole thing that happened

[01:32:48] where

[01:32:49] this liar

[01:32:50] who's kind of out there

[01:32:51] and has these outlandish ideas

[01:32:53] it all just comes together

[01:32:54] and works in the end

[01:32:56] and it's incredibly unlikely

[01:32:58] if you look at the

[01:32:59] situation as it happened

[01:33:01] you just have

[01:33:02] someone who

[01:33:03] completely doomed his

[01:33:05] colony

[01:33:05] and then somehow

[01:33:07] through some

[01:33:08] chain of events

[01:33:09] it work

[01:33:10] but I do think that's kind of

[01:33:12] the territory

[01:33:14] that movies tend to occupy

[01:33:16] he did just colony twice

[01:33:18] like I said I think in most

[01:33:19] circumstances

[01:33:20] although I mean again

[01:33:21] I mean like

[01:33:22] look at our politicians

[01:33:23] right I feel like a lot of

[01:33:24] her kind of liars

[01:33:26] that just keep lying

[01:33:27] they keep lying

[01:33:28] but then there's still politicians

[01:33:29] right I mean

[01:33:30] so it's not too far divorce

[01:33:32] reality but I can't

[01:33:33] what you're saying

[01:33:33] you know this guy who's a liar

[01:33:35] who's been wrong

[01:33:35] who's

[01:33:36] hurt his colony

[01:33:37] it's

[01:33:38] it all works out

[01:33:39] in the end

[01:33:39] it's okay

[01:33:40] and I can understand

[01:33:41] how that's kind of like

[01:33:42] hard to watch

[01:33:43] right I mean

[01:33:44] I think that's where you're going for

[01:33:45] right yes

[01:33:47] I think I get that

[01:33:48] but I guess I want to point out too

[01:33:50] he didn't

[01:33:51] intend on lying

[01:33:53] he

[01:33:54] fullheartedly

[01:33:55] intended on finding

[01:33:57] wire bugs

[01:33:58] to come back

[01:33:59] that was his idea right

[01:34:01] well nobody else

[01:34:02] agreed with him

[01:34:03] but that was his idea

[01:34:04] and they let him go

[01:34:06] so that he wouldn't

[01:34:07] get into trouble anymore

[01:34:08] so that he wouldn't

[01:34:09] be in the way

[01:34:10] it wasn't until he got back

[01:34:13] to the colony where he realized

[01:34:15] oh these

[01:34:15] aren't

[01:34:16] warrior bugs

[01:34:18] and now what do I do

[01:34:19] so I think when you're in that

[01:34:20] situation

[01:34:21] you know you're like okay

[01:34:23] what do I do to get out of this

[01:34:25] situation

[01:34:25] what can I do

[01:34:27] that's Avery's point though

[01:34:27] right is that then he ends up

[01:34:29] doping the colony again

[01:34:30] him and the

[01:34:32] circus troupe conspire

[01:34:33] together

[01:34:34] to pull the wool

[01:34:35] over the eyes of the rest

[01:34:37] of the ants

[01:34:38] and then what ends up

[01:34:39] happening is the

[01:34:40] colony realizes

[01:34:42] that they have been

[01:34:44] duped

[01:34:44] they exile flick

[01:34:46] and the circus

[01:34:47] troupe away

[01:34:48] yeah

[01:34:49] it's important to note

[01:34:50] though that

[01:34:51] Pixar does a good job

[01:34:52] too at like

[01:34:53] bringing all these bugs

[01:34:54] down to like roughly

[01:34:55] the same size

[01:34:56] I mean it makes a

[01:34:57] rhinoceros beetle

[01:34:58] slightly bigger but

[01:34:59] I mean in real life

[01:35:00] a print mantis is

[01:35:02] much larger

[01:35:03] than a grasshopper

[01:35:04] or an ant

[01:35:05] and a black widow is also

[01:35:06] much larger than an ant

[01:35:08] right but I think

[01:35:08] Pixar did a good

[01:35:10] because it didn't

[01:35:10] strike me the first time

[01:35:12] I saw the movie but I

[01:35:12] mean when you start

[01:35:14] to think about all these

[01:35:14] different bugs

[01:35:15] they're all

[01:35:16] way different sizes

[01:35:17] so I do think just

[01:35:19] to take a little bit of

[01:35:20] a sidetrack that

[01:35:20] Pixar did do a good job

[01:35:22] but believably

[01:35:23] bringing all these bugs

[01:35:24] to roughly

[01:35:25] the same size

[01:35:26] which is pretty cool

[01:35:27] the animation of the

[01:35:28] bugs in

[01:35:30] a bug's life

[01:35:31] is also

[01:35:32] much more detailed

[01:35:34] and

[01:35:35] presented in a much

[01:35:37] friendly or more

[01:35:38] accessible manner

[01:35:39] than the animation

[01:35:40] and ants

[01:35:42] ants they're

[01:35:43] almost intentionally

[01:35:44] made to be

[01:35:46] ugly or unappealing

[01:35:48] where ants

[01:35:48] I must robot it

[01:35:49] yeah

[01:35:50] and in a bugs life

[01:35:52] they're made to be

[01:35:53] appealing

[01:35:54] and to be approachable

[01:35:56] this is one of those

[01:35:56] weird

[01:35:57] qualia

[01:35:58] where we can talk about it

[01:36:00] but then when you

[01:36:01] actually start to think

[01:36:02] about it doesn't make

[01:36:02] sense like now what's a

[01:36:03] beautiful versus an ugly

[01:36:04] and

[01:36:06] in theory like

[01:36:06] these things

[01:36:07] shouldn't mean anything

[01:36:08] but

[01:36:09] in practice when we

[01:36:10] watch these two movies

[01:36:12] look at the visuals

[01:36:14] there clearly is a

[01:36:15] difference I would also

[01:36:16] like to point out like

[01:36:17] the way

[01:36:18] gravity works

[01:36:20] generally in a bugs life

[01:36:21] is better

[01:36:22] I'm thinking at the end

[01:36:23] of ants where

[01:36:24] mandible falls to his death

[01:36:26] and he hits the rock

[01:36:28] the gravity is a

[01:36:28] believable and we

[01:36:29] touched on this a

[01:36:30] little bit when I was

[01:36:31] talking about Castle

[01:36:32] the Sky where a lot of

[01:36:33] the quality of the

[01:36:34] animation goes into

[01:36:35] how do you make people

[01:36:37] believe that gravity is

[01:36:38] there when it's

[01:36:39] when gravity is not

[01:36:40] there right and I think

[01:36:41] they do a great job of

[01:36:42] that actually

[01:36:43] in bugs life

[01:36:44] and especially at the end

[01:36:45] when the bird is

[01:36:46] swinging up and down

[01:36:48] yeah really feels like

[01:36:49] a real bird

[01:36:50] so before that

[01:36:51] happens

[01:36:52] dot

[01:36:53] the baby princess

[01:36:55] of the queen

[01:36:56] princess ad is younger

[01:36:57] sister

[01:36:58] over here's hopper

[01:37:00] explaining his

[01:37:02] plan to molt

[01:37:03] where he intends to

[01:37:05] kill the queen

[01:37:06] in front of everybody

[01:37:07] in order to make an example

[01:37:09] hopper has made it clear

[01:37:11] that he is an intending

[01:37:13] to kill all the ants

[01:37:14] he wants to keep them under

[01:37:16] his control

[01:37:17] and the way he intends

[01:37:19] to do that is by striking

[01:37:21] fear into hearts of all of

[01:37:22] them dot here's this

[01:37:24] and she finds

[01:37:26] flick and the circus

[01:37:27] troop

[01:37:28] it manages them to return

[01:37:30] to save her grandma

[01:37:32] so

[01:37:33] they do return and that's

[01:37:34] when they decide to execute

[01:37:36] the plan of using

[01:37:37] the bird to scare off hopper

[01:37:39] now what's interesting to me is

[01:37:40] in watching that development

[01:37:42] the plot

[01:37:44] i thought to myself

[01:37:45] they spent all this summer

[01:37:46] building the bird in the first

[01:37:48] place

[01:37:48] but once the ant colony realizes

[01:37:51] that the circus troop are not

[01:37:53] actually warrior bugs

[01:37:55] they exile them and then just

[01:37:57] forget about the bird

[01:37:58] they decide

[01:37:59] we'll just keep the bird in

[01:38:00] storage and start gathering

[01:38:01] up all the food

[01:38:02] that seems like a little bit

[01:38:03] of a plot hole to me

[01:38:05] yeah this is one of the reasons

[01:38:06] why i just had trouble with it

[01:38:07] of course dot

[01:38:09] the only character

[01:38:10] who really believed in flick

[01:38:12] would just come back to him

[01:38:14] at the lowest point

[01:38:15] convinced him to come back

[01:38:16] and then he becomes a hero

[01:38:17] right but the circus

[01:38:17] knows like of course that

[01:38:18] just has to happen

[01:38:19] yeah okay

[01:38:21] that's a big cinematic

[01:38:22] trope right there

[01:38:23] he's at his darkest hour

[01:38:24] and yet this moment of

[01:38:26] reduction i never lost faith in you

[01:38:27] i believe in you

[01:38:28] you can do it

[01:38:30] and then he does it

[01:38:30] in the story

[01:38:32] it's a story

[01:38:32] this is a Pixar movie

[01:38:35] for children

[01:38:36] not

[01:38:37] drama

[01:38:38] you say that

[01:38:38] but i remember when we watched

[01:38:40] up for the first time

[01:38:42] i remember that

[01:38:43] you remember that

[01:38:44] you can say it's a Pixar movie

[01:38:46] yeah

[01:38:46] you know i mean

[01:38:47] i will grant them the fact

[01:38:49] that this is

[01:38:50] the second

[01:38:51] Pixar movies

[01:38:52] so

[01:38:53] maybe they understand

[01:38:55] how much

[01:38:56] leeway they had

[01:38:57] and telling their stories

[01:38:59] how they could do that

[01:38:59] with the kids movie

[01:39:01] kids movie or not

[01:39:01] there are definitely hints

[01:39:03] at some of the more adult themes

[01:39:05] expressed through the dialogue

[01:39:06] at one point

[01:39:08] hopper

[01:39:09] says you let ones

[01:39:10] aunt stand up to us

[01:39:12] then they all might stand up

[01:39:13] those puny little ants

[01:39:14] out number us a hundred to one

[01:39:16] and if they ever figure that out

[01:39:18] there goes our way of life

[01:39:19] this

[01:39:21] in a lot of ways really

[01:39:22] captures the essence of capitalism right

[01:39:25] whereas that we have the one percent

[01:39:27] lordy know for the rest of us

[01:39:29] insisting that

[01:39:30] tax breaks really work for everybody

[01:39:32] even though it really just benefits them

[01:39:35] and then insisting

[01:39:36] that we all continue to gather up all

[01:39:38] that food that they can consume

[01:39:40] even a theme older than capitalism

[01:39:44] monarchy is futilism

[01:39:46] it's like the way social structures

[01:39:48] who kind of always been

[01:39:50] where it's

[01:39:51] some small group of people

[01:39:52] that are

[01:39:54] trying to convince

[01:39:55] the larger group of people

[01:39:56] that they deserve

[01:39:58] to have more than them

[01:40:00] through this way or another

[01:40:01] keeping them oppressed

[01:40:03] by keeping them separated

[01:40:05] and you know

[01:40:06] focused on conflicts with each other

[01:40:08] as opposed to focusing on

[01:40:09] hey why don't we have most of the stuff

[01:40:11] the rich people have most of this

[01:40:12] why don't we have that

[01:40:14] you know it is

[01:40:15] more subtle

[01:40:16] you know we look back to ants

[01:40:18] and they literally say

[01:40:21] wait we own the means of production

[01:40:23] like literally quoting a communist manifesto

[01:40:27] but in this movie in a

[01:40:28] Bugsife they do a better job at

[01:40:30] being more subtle about it

[01:40:31] yeah ants is much more ham-fisted

[01:40:33] in its presentation of those ideas

[01:40:35] I mean it is literally hitting you

[01:40:37] over the head

[01:40:38] with the concepts that they're exploring

[01:40:41] whereas bugs life

[01:40:42] isn't not only just more subtle

[01:40:44] but it isn't trying to ram

[01:40:45] those points down your throat

[01:40:47] the way ants is trying to do

[01:40:49] but that said again you know

[01:40:51] the dialogue

[01:40:53] betrays that a bit

[01:40:54] because

[01:40:55] we also hear flick at one point

[01:40:57] his literal quote is

[01:40:58] I've seen these ants do great things

[01:41:00] in year after year

[01:41:01] they somehow managed to pick

[01:41:02] enough food for themselves

[01:41:04] and you

[01:41:04] so who's the weaker species

[01:41:06] ants don't serve grasshoppers

[01:41:08] it's you who needs us

[01:41:10] he tells this to hopper

[01:41:11] when hoppers returned

[01:41:13] and they execute the bird plan

[01:41:15] however at the same time

[01:41:17] pt fully has come back to offer jobs

[01:41:20] back to the circus troupe

[01:41:22] and doesn't realize that that's a fake

[01:41:25] bird that they're attacking the grasshoppers with

[01:41:28] so pt fully be in the fire

[01:41:30] enthusiast that he is

[01:41:32] sets the bird on fire

[01:41:34] and it comes crashing down

[01:41:36] and hopper then starts beating

[01:41:40] flick into submission

[01:41:42] and that's when flick says this to him

[01:41:43] he realizes you know it too don't you

[01:41:46] know that we're a lot stronger than you are

[01:41:50] and you can see the fear in hopper's eyes

[01:41:53] as flick says this to him

[01:41:56] and again that kind of captures

[01:41:59] the more political elements of the message of the film

[01:42:03] which is that it's the working class that powers the economy

[01:42:07] it's the working class

[01:42:09] that really owns the materials

[01:42:12] and it's the rich that are living off of that work

[01:42:15] a thorough analysis of slavery

[01:42:19] in the United States

[01:42:22] leads one to think well that wasn't even

[01:42:25] that productive

[01:42:27] the whole cotton slavery system

[01:42:30] it wasn't nearly as productive as it could have been

[01:42:33] with technology or

[01:42:35] you know in similar systems where they paid people

[01:42:38] appropriately and there wasn't slavery

[01:42:40] happening right i mean

[01:42:42] so it leaves you to wonder when you look back at that

[01:42:44] well what was really going on

[01:42:46] and this is true throughout a lot of history

[01:42:48] it's not people sitting down and going okay

[01:42:51] well i need to be in charge because when i'm in charge

[01:42:54] we get the best results

[01:42:56] it's almost never that all throughout history

[01:42:58] it's just one form of racket or another

[01:43:02] right so slavery was the epitome of what a racket was

[01:43:05] it wasn't productive for society

[01:43:06] it was a productive for anyone

[01:43:08] all it's served to do was make some people

[01:43:10] money

[01:43:12] that was just the people that owned the slaves

[01:43:13] and that's it

[01:43:14] not the other southerners right

[01:43:16] and that's what this movie brings to light

[01:43:18] it's not more productive for the ants

[01:43:20] it's not more productive for anyone

[01:43:23] this whole system between the grasshoppers

[01:43:26] and the ants is just a racket run by the grasshoppers

[01:43:29] that's all it is

[01:43:31] using intimidation and fear

[01:43:33] hopper wanted to keep the ants subservient

[01:43:37] yeah

[01:43:37] that was the key

[01:43:39] and i think that's something that also happens

[01:43:43] and something

[01:43:44] slavery

[01:43:44] that it wasn't just production

[01:43:46] it was that they wanted

[01:43:48] that's what it were

[01:43:49] I know

[01:43:49] people subservient

[01:43:50] it was uh

[01:43:51] hey you know we're just to find this

[01:43:53] because of racism

[01:43:54] they're subservient

[01:43:55] well it's funny

[01:43:56] and i think this is not so subtle in fact

[01:43:58] is that

[01:43:59] you know after their subservience is over

[01:44:01] after the answer finally free

[01:44:03] they're embracing these new technologies

[01:44:05] that make their life easier

[01:44:06] and they're probably producing way more food

[01:44:08] than they ever did

[01:44:09] because they're not subservient

[01:44:11] they're not living in fear

[01:44:12] you know they can explore means of reduction

[01:44:14] then make the best results for them

[01:44:16] so

[01:44:17] the subtlety

[01:44:18] is

[01:44:19] out order of magnitude better

[01:44:20] than it is in ants

[01:44:22] you know as you say all of that

[01:44:25] it reminded me

[01:44:26] uh

[01:44:27] William F. Buckley

[01:44:28] the famous

[01:44:29] conservative writer from the 1960s

[01:44:32] and he defined

[01:44:33] conservatism

[01:44:34] as

[01:44:35] standing

[01:44:36] at the throes of history

[01:44:38] and saying stop

[01:44:41] and

[01:44:42] the nature of life

[01:44:44] is change

[01:44:46] change

[01:44:46] is inevitable

[01:44:48] there is no stopping change

[01:44:50] no matter what

[01:44:51] it's always going to change

[01:44:54] it's always going to evolve

[01:44:55] whether you'd like it or not

[01:44:57] but i think the existence of conservatism

[01:45:00] is important because

[01:45:01] i think conservatism is saying

[01:45:03] hey these things worked in the past

[01:45:05] and we shouldn't just let go of everything

[01:45:08] it's a balance

[01:45:09] it's a balance

[01:45:10] it's certainly a balance

[01:45:11] so

[01:45:12] once

[01:45:13] pt

[01:45:14] fully

[01:45:15] sets that bird on fire

[01:45:17] hopper

[01:45:18] takes

[01:45:19] flick

[01:45:20] and

[01:45:22] decides that he's going to torture and kill him

[01:45:25] but

[01:45:26] princess

[01:45:26] add a

[01:45:27] rushes

[01:45:28] to help save him

[01:45:30] and

[01:45:30] they

[01:45:31] trick

[01:45:32] hopper into

[01:45:34] following them

[01:45:35] to an actual bird nest

[01:45:37] and hopper

[01:45:37] not realizing that this is an actual bird

[01:45:40] starts taunting the bird

[01:45:41] ends up feeding him to her chicks

[01:45:44] something that remained

[01:45:46] i wouldn't say scary

[01:45:47] but visceral

[01:45:49] while watching this today

[01:45:50] and then also when i was a kid

[01:45:51] was

[01:45:52] how fast the bird was

[01:45:54] they animated that bird to be fast

[01:45:57] it's bigger

[01:45:57] it's stronger

[01:45:59] it'll eat you

[01:46:00] and it's faster

[01:46:02] and not accidentally

[01:46:03] this is the darkest sequence in the movie

[01:46:05] it's raining

[01:46:06] it's gray

[01:46:08] it's scary

[01:46:09] and

[01:46:10] it plays that way

[01:46:11] when the bird attacks hopper

[01:46:14] it's frightening

[01:46:16] and i wouldn't say that it's

[01:46:17] gory or graphic in the way that answers

[01:46:21] it still is effective

[01:46:23] at the way that it sends that chill

[01:46:25] up the viewer's spine

[01:46:26] what do you think it would be like a

[01:46:28] violent scene

[01:46:30] you know as i've gotten older

[01:46:32] i've gotten to be very sensitive

[01:46:34] to violence in movies

[01:46:36] and

[01:46:37] yeah the violence implied

[01:46:40] by feeding hopper to the baby chicks

[01:46:43] is

[01:46:44] you don't see it

[01:46:45] it's not

[01:46:46] specifically gory

[01:46:48] but the implication of it is clear

[01:46:50] it's the circle of life

[01:46:54] did any of you think that

[01:46:56] the scene

[01:46:57] when

[01:46:58] hopper and the grasshoppers came

[01:47:00] back

[01:47:01] the second time

[01:47:02] to

[01:47:03] ant island

[01:47:04] they were going to get their

[01:47:06] due by the time the last leaf falls

[01:47:10] they walked out of the fog

[01:47:12] i thought that was really well done

[01:47:15] yes i think i remember when i was a child

[01:47:17] i thought that was actually a scary moment

[01:47:19] very

[01:47:20] yeah they were animated very detailed and

[01:47:22] you can see like the

[01:47:23] i guess

[01:47:24] how mean

[01:47:25] hopper

[01:47:26] subtle too

[01:47:27] but all the other grasshoppers

[01:47:29] besides hopper and his brother are

[01:47:31] animated a different color

[01:47:33] more tain color

[01:47:35] but hopper and his brother are like a

[01:47:37] serious

[01:47:38] evil color and then you have the one albino

[01:47:40] one that's super violent

[01:47:41] crazy

[01:47:43] so it uses those subtle

[01:47:45] coloring tricks

[01:47:46] to kind of lead your attention

[01:47:48] into certain directions

[01:47:49] like hey

[01:47:50] this is the bad guy

[01:47:51] hey this is the crazy guy

[01:47:54] so

[01:47:56] what do we think

[01:47:57] how did we compare these two movies

[01:47:59] to each other

[01:48:00] what do we think is the better film and why

[01:48:02] so vester salon is weaver at the end of

[01:48:05] ants

[01:48:06] really captured my heart

[01:48:08] so aztec turns to weaver

[01:48:10] and i have this written in my notes

[01:48:12] because we can't play the movie clip unfortunately

[01:48:14] he's like you know weaver

[01:48:15] you still owe me

[01:48:16] that dinner

[01:48:17] because they haven't gotten a dinner yet

[01:48:19] and that's what they're talking about

[01:48:21] and i don't know

[01:48:22] what was going on with the production of the movie

[01:48:24] like it doesn't feel like this written in

[01:48:26] but imagine this

[01:48:27] she goes you know weaver

[01:48:29] you still owe me that dinner and he goes

[01:48:30] baby love

[01:48:32] and then the movie ends

[01:48:34] and uh i don't know how that stuck out at the time

[01:48:38] here's the thing

[01:48:38] i think in Hollywood they just have b-roll

[01:48:41] like audio of people

[01:48:43] so i think they like access that public library

[01:48:46] of silvestre salon b-roll audio

[01:48:48] and just through something

[01:48:49] and that was the most romantic thing they can find

[01:48:51] because they like added that

[01:48:53] line in at the end of the movie

[01:48:54] and that just really captured my heart

[01:48:56] so i gotta go with ants on this one

[01:48:58] i came into both of the films

[01:49:01] thinking that it was going to be

[01:49:03] nostalgic and i knew that i would have a problem

[01:49:06] with bugs life because of

[01:49:09] how the plot would go

[01:49:11] and i thought i would like ants

[01:49:14] more because of the more intellectual part of it

[01:49:17] and the more drama

[01:49:19] but i just don't like either of them

[01:49:22] that's actually a surprising result

[01:49:23] i bet you weren't expecting to dislike both movies

[01:49:28] i knew i was going to really have a hard time

[01:49:31] really liking bugs life but i didn't think i would dislike ants as much as i did

[01:49:34] did i miss that i mean i know you were describing your dislike

[01:49:37] a flicks character where there are other elements of bugs life that you found

[01:49:41] problematic i think i just found the lies to be

[01:49:44] so much cringe worthy the misunderstanding between them

[01:49:47] i thought i'm not a huge fan of this type of trope

[01:49:49] just a purpose or life of communication to progress the story

[01:49:54] an idiot plot development if you will

[01:49:56] yes i am not a fan of this and then they decide to

[01:50:00] continue lying doubling down anyways

[01:50:03] doing the colony even more dot had to go back and convince

[01:50:07] like i didn't mean this is just so it's a very

[01:50:10] children's movie and i can only treat it as that

[01:50:14] you guys were both not born when this movie came out so the first time you would

[01:50:20] have seen both of these films would have been when you were kids do you have any

[01:50:24] concept of how you felt about these two movies when you were kids the first

[01:50:27] time you saw them positive i remember that i love these movies

[01:50:31] oh they're cool oh my god the bird ate opera well hoppers

[01:50:35] they're flying around it's cool on the circus animal they're so fun to

[01:50:38] wacky and fun to watch you have mandible and then you have hopper

[01:50:42] right and there these scary antagonistic and grasshoppers

[01:50:48] i remember those what's notable is i don't remember the scene in ants

[01:50:52] with the termites did i mentally block out the the

[01:50:56] capitated dandy glover because i swear it's the first time i've seen that

[01:51:00] scene but i know that's not true i remember those i remember the

[01:51:02] term i seen i remember the magnifying glass scene the shoe with the gum

[01:51:06] scene those were like more i think when i was a child

[01:51:08] ants actually really demonstrated scale probably just why i saw a giant shoe

[01:51:13] like a giant coming over and smashing down into the ground and when the scene

[01:51:17] where they're on the gum and it shows the camera just

[01:51:21] panning straight into the third i think i was a child i was like whoa

[01:51:25] this is cool but to me that's all it was it was like these are cool movies

[01:51:28] now to both of you guys having only seen these movies as adults did they

[01:51:33] change for you i liked both of them when i first saw them but this time

[01:51:38] i just felt the ants seemed forced and it didn't work in a lot of ways

[01:51:45] for me whereas i still laughed at a bug's life there's a lot of

[01:51:50] endearing characters in that movie it's visually stunning it's fun to watch it's

[01:51:56] bright i saw both of these movies at the theater when they both came out

[01:52:01] for different reasons one because i was a huge fan of toy story so from that

[01:52:06] point forward any Pixar movie between 1995 and probably

[01:52:13] 2015 or so maybe a little farther i would go to the theater to see it

[01:52:19] so kyle laurey and i have seen numerous Pixar movies at the theater and

[01:52:24] aviary you were probably with us on a few of those bugs life doesn't quite hold

[01:52:29] up as well as it used to for me when i was watching it i did notice some of

[01:52:34] those idiot plot developments that were a little disappointing i didn't take

[01:52:38] it as badly as you did in watching it and my final analysis because i also

[01:52:42] agree with Lori the production values were so superior in fact i was so

[01:52:47] impressed by how well the animation has held up

[01:52:50] from a bug's life because you see some of those early computer animated movies

[01:52:55] from everybody but Pixar and you go you know it doesn't look as cleaner it doesn't

[01:52:59] as smooth or the transitions don't work as well that's not the case with the

[01:53:03] bugs life bugs life still looks like it was made 15 minutes ago it looks

[01:53:07] state of the art and the voice performances are really good the circus

[01:53:12] troupe is great they are absolutely worth the price of admission all on

[01:53:17] their own and that was the movie that i would have

[01:53:22] thought even back in 1998 was going to be the one that i would have preferred

[01:53:27] and i didn't find that to be the case in 1998 and i still don't find that to

[01:53:31] be the case like you guys i thought a lot of the themes

[01:53:35] and adult ideas that are expressed in answer going to make this

[01:53:40] much more interesting and it is and i think we've talked about a lot of really

[01:53:45] interesting concepts here today but the way that presented in ants is as i

[01:53:50] mentioned earlier kind of jamming it down the viewers throat it's not really

[01:53:55] told in an artistic or uh yeah or thoughtful or poetic way

[01:54:01] it's just presented and then shoved down your throats

[01:54:05] you know i'm thinking i think we control the means of production

[01:54:08] and so as a result i mean even if it doesn't hold up quite as well as it did in

[01:54:13] 1998 or 2008 or 2018 bugs life is still a superior film bugs life is

[01:54:19] something that probably doesn't deserve to be forgotten in the Pixar pantheon of

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